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Looking to Buy one !??!?!!??

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(@davee)
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Hi @uksteve,

re: neither is the noise aspect

I am not an expert, but my understanding is that stepper motor vibrations are bad news in two respects.

The first is obvious, especially if you are in the same room as the printer, as I am at present, but also the vibrations mean the whole machine is 'shaking' to some extent, and that can give rise to all sorts of patterning in the print.

And as for speed, prints can easily take a few hours .. and unless your CAD skills, etc are ace, the first one will probably have a one or more sizes wrong, so allow for the retries. 

Of course, this is all theoretical ... what is good enough for one person may be a disaster for another.

Hence, my suggestion is start with modest aims and costs ... don't expect to get everything right first time .. try to give yourself some flexibility ... I am still on my first printer, but it is obvious that many people who have been in the game for a while have bought more than one as their requirements and printer capabilities have expanded. 

Best wishes and good luck, Dave


   
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Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
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@Inq I just discovered that I can buy 'direct' in Canada and with free shipping although I have to re-read some of the shipping policy as I thought I saw some clauses saying some unforeseen events could result in me out of pocket and no printer. That seems very unreasonable so I need to re-read that section when I am less tired. Now to see if I can free up a little space.

BTW, which plastics smell bad and are there any that don't smell. Living in an apartment means I will have to set up some sort of enclosure and fans to vent to the outside. Might have to cease printing when the temperature drops below 0F/-18C.

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
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Will
 Will
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@zander 

ABS smells bad. PLA hardly smells at all.Others - unknown.

Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.


   
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 Inq
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Posted by: @uksteve

I've dabble'd with CAD and design software in the past so thats also something i'll have to take into consideration too... no just hitting the 'Print' button for regular printing i imagine.

Actually, it's pretty close... compared to my days as an aerospace engineer where things I designed and analyzed often took months to actually come alive as a physical part... a 3D printer is nothing short of pure magic!  😉  

 

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
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 Inq
(@inq)
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Posted by: @davee

I fear this might be hijacking a thread again, but for now, I'll stick with this one.

No, you're information has been vital to at least me and I hope to the OP!  This evening, I've had a sudden burning sensation of a hole forming in my pocket.  I've seen simple 1st generation Ender-3's make some incredible parts.  Some... I confused as being injected molded that my son made until I put on glasses and held them up two inches away.  Considering that this one has all the upgrades my son has done, plus all that my $1000 Prusa has and updated motherboard/software.  I'm thinking $200 is the cheapest insurance I can get for a backup that might actually replace the current work horse.  Besides... when one breaks, I can always print replacement part for the other! 🤣 

Posted by: @davee

I have been meaning to give TPU a go, maybe with bowden system to start with,

I found TPU to be tough to work with.  Even with my direct drive, I can only drive it at 15 to 20 mm/sec.  Anything more and it'll eject out the side.  A Bowden tube just exacerbates that problem.  It gives it more chances to kink-up in the tube and clog.  My son swears by Capricorn blue Bowden tubing.  I believe it is made of Teflon and has a tighter diameter that is closer to the nominal 1.75mm of the filament.  Being tighter, it doesn't give the filament a chance to kink. Beware... many PTFE and even Vinyl tubing suppliers have colored theirs blue to undercut on price.  It is expensive comparatively!

Bowden also has the problem about retraction.  This is where the extruder has to compress the filament into the nozzle.  Dah! right?  For a direct extruder that compression length is tiny say 5mm.  I only need a 0.8mm retraction.  A Bowden tube being say 250mm between the extruder and the nozzle has to compress a huge length of filament.  PLA might need 7mm of compression to build up the force at the nozzle.  TPU being nearly like rubber requires almost double that length.  This becomes very problematic on a Bowden design as the TPU can be retracted fast enough when moving from one location to another.  It'll tend to leave a lot of stringiness.   Anyway... long story... Plan on experimenting, getting your settings right for TPU.  Maybe the Creality suggested settings might help.

Posted by: @davee

To do a meaningful benchmark, I think it is necessary to agree some parameters, especially regarding Cura (or equivalent) profile.

That's a very good question!  The thing is... the company should have made those decisions.  See there is an extreme trade-off between speed and cosmetic quality.  So for a company to claim a 13 minute or even a 28 minute Benchy, they probably made sacrifices to quality.  That's why... if you had this V3 SE, I'd expect they have the GCODE file for the 28 minute as well as a separate one for the 1:46 Benchy that was optimized to stress speed and quality respectively.  I'm not sure my suggestions would be fair or valid.

Posted by: @davee

especially his 'hyper fast' PLA, with 0.32mm layer thickness, simply because it is much faster, and for many purposes 'good enough'. Of course, the corners, etc. are comparatively rough, and there are sometimes issues with unsupported internal curves

Wow!  0.32mm layer with 0.4 mm nozzle!  Cosmetically that should be atrocious.  Again, another trade-off.  Thicker layers is considered to give a stronger part if you're interested in structural parts.  I usually shoot for around 0.25mm in that situation.  But for cosmetic parts, the suggestion is to be around 0.1 to 0.15mm layers.  Or if you're feeling frisky... use the Adaptive Layers option down in the Experimental and it can give you the best of both worlds.  I often allow it to vary the layers between 0.15 and 0.35mm and have some great parts that are both strong and having nice top curving requiring little to no post processing.  Smaller layers also improve overhangs.  Whereas at 0.25 mm layers you might only be able to handle 45 degree overhangs, you might go as high as 70 with 0.1mm overhangs.  Although... those numbers are based on using ABS which is far more better about overhangs to start with.  

Lot's of tricks to this stuff that you pick up over the years!

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
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 Inq
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Posted by: @zander

Sadly, after getting excited I realized I have no room to set it up. My apartment is small and my work area even smaller.

Sorry to hear that!  They really don't take up much room.  A closet will do fine... maybe better with the noise and smell shielding.  But I definitely understand stuffing 10 pounds of crap into a 5 pound bag!  Good luck! 😉 

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
Even usable on ESP-01S - Quickest Start Guide


   
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Will
 Will
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Posted by: @inq

... a 3D printer is nothing short of pure magic!  😉  

And addictive as well !

 

Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.


   
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Inq
 Inq
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Posted by: @davee

that can give rise to all sorts of patterning in the print.

DEFINITELY!  My first printer didn't have silent drivers.  It never made a good part.  Being new, I didn't know any better till I got my Prusa... I use the steppers off the first one in my robots!  🤣 

Posted by: @davee

And as for speed, prints can easily take a few hours .. and unless your CAD skills, etc are ace, the first one will probably have a one or more sizes wrong, so allow for the retries. 

Again true... and different plastics have different coefficients of thermal expansion (CTE) (they shrink differently) and they have a wider range.  PLA at 200C... ABS at 250C... PC at 270C.  PC/Carbon Fiber has a negative CTE... it actually grows (very slightly) as it cools!

Designing parts and making disparate material play nice with each other takes some practice.  I have Excel spreadsheets that tell me what size to make things to fit certain objects...  bolts, bearing, etc.  Cura now has the ability to put those factors into the material properties.  That way your CAD model can be made (by design) and Cura enlarges it to account for the cooling shrinkage.  Way cool!  (pun intended) 😋 

Posted by: @davee

Hence, my suggestion is start with modest aims and costs ...

Before getting one, I worried about recurring costs of the plastic.  It seemed SO EXPENSIVE to something like an Inkjet Cartridge.  After having one though...  I don't worry about it at all.  You can put the cost of your filament in Cura and it'll tell you what your part's going to cost plastic wise.  But after equating it to what it'd cost me to buy parts... I got real calm! 😋 

My Inqster 8" ABS wheel cost $0.49.  The TPU tire $1.10.  The cheapest Harbor Freight 8" wheel/tire is $7 and weighs over 1Kg.  That alone would have totally thrown off the abilities of the robot.  An then I'd have to figure how to mount the damn thing.  An Inqster wheel/tire only weighs 107 grams and is adapted to the motor shaft requirements.

I know I'm a worn record - 3D Printers are shear magic!

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
Even usable on ESP-01S - Quickest Start Guide


   
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Inq
 Inq
(@inq)
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Posted by: @zander

BTW, which plastics smell bad and are there any that don't smell. Living in an apartment means I will have to set up some sort of enclosure and fans to vent to the outside. Might have to cease printing when the temperature drops below 0F/-18C.

Posted by: @will

ABS smells bad. PLA hardly smells at all.Others - unknown.

Agreed...

  • ABS will give you a headache.  Filter or exhaust outside!  100+ rolls
  • PLA didn't bother me, but I've read of some people here complaining.  Maybe, I have the COVID lack of smell issue.  😆 I've only used say 10 rolls.
  • PETG - I don't like the stuff.  Some people love it.  Only used 2 rolls.  I recall it having a slightly sweet smell.  Don't think it is harmful.
  • Nylon - It stinks too.  Filter or exhaust outside!
  • TPU - I didn't notice any smell.
  • PC/Carbon Filament - No smell here either.  Be careful sanding, cutting it.  Carbon fibers are a severe lung hazard!

Edit:  Forgot, you're in the Artic North.  They make carbon filters/fans that will filter out all the smell and anything bad.  That way you don't have to figure a way to vent it outside an apartment that might have a problem with you cutting big holes in the wall.  That way you can also reclaim all the heat into the apartment.

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
Even usable on ESP-01S - Quickest Start Guide


   
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 Inq
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Posted by: @will

And addictive as well !

Cheaper than drugs!  😆  And keeps you off the street at night.

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
Even usable on ESP-01S - Quickest Start Guide


   
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(@davee)
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Hi @inq,

  Thanks for the comments in your multiple replies to myself and others ... all very much welcomed.

  I hope my comments are not adversely encouraging you to buy something that doesn't live up to its hype or that you don't need!

  The benchmarking question still has a 'How long is a piece of elastic string?' feel. In the short time, the question is somewhat academic fro me, whilst I figure out what and how the contraption on the table in front of me can do, but in the longer term, i if I decided to upugrade, I wouldn't care about a few percent differences, but more like if I do xxxx or buy yyyy, will total printing time be 1.5 or 2x or 3x or 4x or ... faster?

Others would no doubt be interested in maximum practical print size or print quality.

Can this/these questions be usefully approached and answered? At the moment I am both bemused and cynical about the claims.

-------

To add to your smell/nuisance comments, I find PLA has a 'minor' odour, and whilst I wouldn't recommend it as a perfume or room 'air freshner', most of the time I don't even notice it.

My first quick play with PET-G didn't seem to produce any objectional odour either. The prints looked 'messier', but occasionally the claimed properties of less flamability and/or more resistant to heat, compared to PLA, could be useful.

I haven't used ABS, whereas you have a lot of direct experience, but given the general comments around, I think I would be inclined to go on the 'safe' side and ensure I had a venting arrangement, and not rely on filtering, as some of the 'nasties', that are attributed to it may not be obvious. Of course, I may just be being over cautious, but for the moment, with an open printer, I will probably just forego trying to print ABS and nylon.

-----

Thanks for your comments about TPU .. I had already surmised it was going to be tricky, and printing would need to be slowed down. From what I have read, TPU comes in different 'flavours', with some 'flavours' being a bit less stretchy and a bit stiffer, making it a little more forgiving to the printer.

When I changed the heat-break, I also swapped the bowden material for some 'blue stuff' that came (via AliExpress) in Creality style packaging ... whether it is any different or just cheap ptfe (hopefully not vinyl!) with some blue colouring, I don't know .. but then again, I am not clear what fundamentally differentiates 'Capricorn' from straight ptfe. (Teflon is a tradename for ptfe).

In reality, only a relatively small number of different 'base' plastic polymers are made in large quantities .. much of the final properties of a 'useful' plastic object are down to small amounts of additives which markedly change the properties to suit the final product.

-------

Obviously 0.32mm layers are visible, but for something like a box to hold some electronics in, does that matter? For me, just having some kind of a box or base is magic!!

The main problems seem to be holes and the like, as occasionally the innermost layer will have a strand that has gone straight, rather than taking the circular path. Although I have started to make sense of few Cura options, the list is very long and I have a long way to go yet!

I am also tempted to try a 0.6mm nozzle for 'quick and dirty' prints.

Best wishes, Dave


   
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Inq
 Inq
(@inq)
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Posted by: @davee

I hope my comments are not adversely encouraging you to buy something that doesn't live up to its hype or that you don't need!

It was nip and tuck there for a while.  $200 is an outstanding price for those features and capabilities.  But, I think my Prusa has been listening about being put out to pasture.  It's straitened up very nicely and is printing some of its best work.  If it even burps, I'll know which one to get.

Posted by: @davee

Can this/these questions be usefully approached and answered? At the moment I am both bemused and cynical about the claims.

I couldn't tell if this was a real question or being rhetorical. 

Speed... it always comes with a price tag of lower quality.  Yes, these new high-end Bambu X1 and Creality K1 series have some incredible print speeds.  For a hobbyist at least at my level, I'm just not in that big of a hurry.  My prints are 99% structural/functional.  Cosmetics are way down on my priorities.  I'm not printing D&D characters.  😉 My priority... I just want it to work reliably.  

Size - I think one of the main drivers for size (for other people, not me) is making a human helmet. Cosplay people get off if they can make a Stormtrooper, Darth Vader helmet in one shot.  I've become quite proficient at cutting things up for size reasons, to avoid using supports or just to optimize strength.  If/when I get a second (working) printer, I'd go up in size, but I'd still expect I'd use my Prusa 99% of the time. 

I have this obsession about printing a catamaran.  Here is a proof of concept using the maximum size of the Prusa.  If finished, it would only be a one person Cat.  I'd like to get a printer big enough to print racing two person Cat... say 350 mm width hulls and 8 meters long.

CatHull

Posted by: @davee

Obviously 0.32mm layers are visible, but for something like a box to hold some electronics in, does that matter? For me, just having some kind of a box or base is magic!!

Exactly... layers are only really noticeable when on inclines... like say a sphere.  Strait sides - go for broke.  Actually, thicker layers are usually stronger.  Since it is laying down a larger amount of plastic, their is more heat energy available to give a better bonding to the previous layer.  Strength is actually another trade-off with cosmetics.  The part cooling fan is meant to quickly solidify the extruded plastic.  But this also reduces its heat penetration and bonding to the previous layer.  In my structural prints with ABS, I actually turn off print-cooling and use large (0.25 to 0.35 mm layers).  For cosmetics... you obviously want fine/thin layers.  If you have cosmetic parts you might want to explore the Adaptive Layers option down in the Experimental section.  It varies the layer thickness based on the slope of part.  Thick layers on the sphere sides, going to thin layers on the sphere top.  Pretty cool feature! 😎 

Posted by: @davee

I am also tempted to try a 0.6mm nozzle for 'quick and dirty' prints.

The unfortunate aspect of a bigger nozzle, is that heat block can only melt so much plastic so fast.  Although you might get 0.5mm+ layers, you might have to slow down your speed... so in essence, you don't achieve any quicker prints.  These high-speed printers use extremely long necked nozzles (~25mm) and high output heaters to melt the plastic faster.  These can pump out a lot of plastic with even 1mm nozzles.

It's fun to work with these things!

VBR,

Inq

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
Even usable on ESP-01S - Quickest Start Guide


   
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 Inq
(@inq)
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Very favorable review of the Bambu Labs printers comparing X1 Carbon with P1P against each other.

https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/bambu-labs-x1-carbon-vs-bambu-labs-p1p-review/

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
Even usable on ESP-01S - Quickest Start Guide


   
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