Experimental Robotics Platform powered by the Pico W

Posted by: @thrandell

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I received a notice from Digi-Key about a Robotics webinar on using the Experimental Robotics Platform powered by the Pico W. 

https://event.on24.com/wcc/r/4334453/067014729230BCF247CCBE00EA8C02D6?partnerref=dkemail&utm_medium=email&utm_source=web&utm_campaign=144759_WEB23SPF1A&utm_content=Banner_US&utm_cid=13645532

Might be interesting an interesting way to get a jump start into Robotics.  The Webinar is Oct 4. 2023.

Tom

Registered!  Thanks.

Kit is $115, but back ordered.  

Hi @inq & @thrandell,

 Interesting lead Tom.

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  If anyone is really desperate, maybe DigiKey have stock in US & UK

     https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/sparkfun-electronics/KIT-22296/19117674?s=N4IgTCBcDaIB4CcAOIC6BfIA

.. but at first glance, maybe  Inq's family looks easily comparable, sometimes smarter, depending on which item/feature you  look at?

e.g https://docs.sparkfun.com/SparkFun_XRP_Controller/hardware_overview/

The Pico W is cheap, but not even well endowed in horsepower by Pi family standards.

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And in case anyone wants a quick flavour, the website is

https://experientialrobotics.org/

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I am trying to imagine how far they can get with that platform .. Is it just me, or does it look bereft of more complex/interesting sensors? Perhaps it's aimed at schools?

Best wishes, Dave

Posted by: @davee

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I am trying to imagine how far they can get with that platform .. Is it just me, or does it look bereft of more complex/interesting sensors? Perhaps it's aimed at schools?

Schools - Exactly.  Note in their literature it comes from FIRST robotics.  That's the international grade-school through high-school competition series using robots.  I mentor the local high-school team.

https://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc

I think InqEgg sounds almost the same spec wise, but this XPR will gain a huge following.  The FIRST competition robots are extremely expensive and complex.  Our team's drive motors alone are over a $1000.  This XPR allows individual kids to work on robotics at a far lower price point.

Hi @inq,

   Thanks for the reply. Although the photos show the UK's Prime Minister trying to pretend to look interested, he was probably just on a jolly/photo opportunity, getting away from his more domestic problems, as I hadn't heard of FIRST robotics or any of the other stuff surrounding it from a UK perspective. I remember you mentioning your involvement with an initiative requiring $1000+ robots, but didn't realise it was related to this one. Obviously, this has a much more affordable starting base.

Best wishes, Dave

In my last post, I only highlighted the positive aspects.  Aspects are not all rosy, but for someone starting out and having a kit and a recipe to a successful start, I still see it as a good thing.

I want to be positive as I am trying to be a mentor, but I see the FIRST robotics has become big business.  The fees of admission just to field a bot are high.  FIRST doesn't sound like a non-profit anymore, but a large establishment with management and paid staff.  There are required hardware parts all from single vendors that are expensive and the nature of the competition has some teams with deep pockets upping the stakes every year.  In our area, no parents could afford even a small percentage of the cost for their child.  A bot can easily run $10K+ for some teams.  Even our relatively impoverished team is expecting to spend $50K for fielding a team, bot hardware, fees and travel expenses.

I haven't been to a competition yet, but the other coaches/leads/mentors talk of the some teams where if something goes wrong, its nothing but adults taking over and debugging/fixing.

Fortunately, the competition also stresses other aspects of the venture like fund-raising, advertising, marketing and even a web / social media presence of the teams.  So it doesn't only involve the introverted geeks anymore.  I've seen the mixture as a good thing where extroverted marketing types mix with the stereotypical nurds.  I've seen wall-flowers turn into real team leaders.  Overall the program is great.  

This XPR does sounds like an attempt to give a cheap introductory platform for learning and I don't really see any competition aspect in the design.  It looks like it has a line following capability, the one ultra-sonic sensor, and the gyro/accel sensor.  However, there also seems to be a more profit oriented aspect to it.  It does not appear to be a world serving educational product like the Raspberry PI started out being and still is.  I'm thinking that we could easily source the parts and 3D Print the chassis for less than $20.  In the quantities that Sparkfun, Digikey, etc can source, their wholesale is probably under $10.  

Sorry being such a curmudgeon, but I think people here on the forum are far more capable and knowledgeable than the average non-technical parent struggling to foster some STEM capabilities in their child.

I'll definitely watch the webcast.  Maybe after it, we can come up with a $20 parts list, maybe design a circuit board, 3D Printer models and tutorial so we can help an even larger, less-advantaged segment of the population of parents and children than this $115, back-ordered kit can serve.  I believe that would be in the vein that Bill encourages and fosters here on the DroneBotWorkshop!   

Anyone else agree?

Hi @inq,

  First apologies ... I try to keep up with reading replies etc on a reasonably timely basis, but this one sneaked in and avoided my attention ... perhaps it was hoping to avoid being hit with YAS (yet another sermon)? 🤨 🤨 🤨  It nearly succeeded, but Bill's forum has an Unread Posts button .... 🙄 🙄 ... it didn't expect that line of discovery.

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As I mentioned before, I didn't realise there was a connection with a non-destructive version of "Robot Wars" (you may use a different name), competition you mentioned a short while back, and this rather (technically) limited and (to me) un-inspiring robot, that apparently interested the UK PM, but didn't make any headlines that I saw in the UK.

I feel unqualified to comment on what such an initiative needs to be 'inspiring' to the next generation, but, needing $50k (or £50k) as an 'entry cost' puts it in league that would include the UK PM, but exclude practically all but the most wealthy groups and probably need to be sponsored by a company or similar, on this side of the Atlantic.

The $115 (£115) per starter bot, is at least plausible, in that (for example) upper end Lego sets are in this area, but of course, only children of 'financially comfortable' parents are likely to buying them .. that maybe excludes more than 50% of children. So better, but far from ideal. If that can be trimmed to say below $30 (£30), then the excluded range would become much smaller, especially when local groups may be able to buy some parts for sharing and lending.

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Perhaps the first requirement is to find a theme which makes it generally inviting and inspiring.

As a self-confessed exception (not neccessarily in a good way), including as a child, I am under qualified to comment, but I think a degree of competiveness and excitement is required. Emulating a robotic vacuum cleaner or lawn mower, I fear is unlikely to score more than about 2 on a scale of 10. On that basis, to most children or parents, no matter how smart and clever it is technically, where will it go? And without that, even very low cost options are going to struggle.

Of course there used to be, maybe still are, micro-maze competitions, but I doubt if they would get beyond 2.5 points, without a serious makeover.

So do you, or anyone else, have a 'theme' which is both practical to do, engaging and inspiring?

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I think if you can get a good 'theme', then if it is possible to design and build a 'thing' (presumably a bot of some type) for say $20-$30 (£20-£30), would be great, and in principle at least, I support it. Obviously, $10 would be better still, but I think there is some elasticity there, for the right cause.

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Perhaps I am misjudging the backing this project already has, and merely providing an alternate design for a 'DIY' kit design which effectively duplicates the $115 commercial kit is a valid approach.

I know the local libraries (Gloucestershire, UK) are setting up a kind of maker club with a 3D printer or two, etc., although I have only seen the web pages, etc., so access to 3D printing is becoming more viable, without actually buying one. I am less clear how much each person would actually have to pay to print each bot, given the print time, etc., including paying for prints that failed, printer maintenance and so on.  I suspect it will considerably exceed the filament cost.  Does the market justify making inection mould parts instead?

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So in summary:

  Do I think it is a worthy general aim?

     YES

  Am I convinced there is a viable plan of action? 

      Not yet, but open to persuasion.

 Principal questions and doubts.

    Does the overall theme create enough 'inspiration' and 'enthusiasm'?

    Is producing a cheap clone design of the $115 kit enough to make a significant difference?

    What will the true 'end build' cost be?

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Hope this isn't too pessimistic in tone, but as a sceptic, I always aim for the problems and details first. If they can be solved early on, which can be hard, then the chance of success later becomes higher.

Best wishes, Dave

Posted by: @davee

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Bill's forum has an Unread Posts button .... ... it didn't expect that line of discovery.

I was better off not knowing that existed! 🤣 ... and so was the forum. 😜 

Posted by: @davee

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needing $50k (or £50k) as an 'entry cost' puts it in league that would include the UK PM, but exclude practically all but the most wealthy groups and probably need to be sponsored by a company or similar, on this side of the Atlantic.

Well... certainly this side of the pond also.  If the "group/club" here had even asked for $100 for child dues (even one-time) they'd have no kids doing this FIRST (High School Level).  But the high-school club is sponsored by a coach and staffed by parents and me (I think I'm the only one w/o kids in school) are all volunteers.  As I mentioned, they encourage many types of students and over the years they've built up sponsors that fund the club to field a robot and transport and house kids at events.  For instance here is our webpage built/updated by the students.  At the bottom shows a list of the sponsors.  They also run fundraisers... like bake sales, etc that any small town would typically have here in The South (as in south-east US).  

https://smokymountainrobot.weebly.com/

Posted by: @davee

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I know the local libraries (Gloucestershire, UK) are setting up a kind of maker club with a 3D printer or two, etc., although I have only seen the web pages, etc., so access to 3D printing is becoming more viable, without actually buying one.

Even our area Library has a 3D printer.  One of the librarians makes the prints and we have a users-group for it.  The fee is pretty nominal as it is.  It wouldn't surprise me if many municipalities would just wave the fees if there was a presence showing that it is for educational STEM purposes.  Its in our charter here.  I know... I'm on the library board. 😉 I'd petition to make it official!

Posted by: @davee

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I think if you can get a good 'theme', then if it is possible to design and build a 'thing' (presumably a bot of some type) for say $20-$30 (£20-£30), would be great, and in principle at least, I support it. Obviously, $10 would be better still, but I think there is some elasticity there, for the right cause.

I don't know much about this XRP, but the webcast is this Wednesday and I hope to learn more... and if it permits questions, I'm sure I'll have plenty. 😉 

"Developed in partnership with the FIRST robotics community"

This wording on their page is kind of suspect (are we being too skeptical)... it doesn't say "non-profit", doesn't say "educational", doesn't say it is part of FIRST, so I don't know where it's coming from or going to. 

• FIRST offers a suite of PreK-12 robotics programs: FIRST LEGO League (ages 4-16, varies by country and division), FIRST Tech Challenge (ages 12-18), and FIRST Robotics Competition (ages 14-18).

... so I don't see where this XRP fits in.  If FIRST adopted the kit for say a mid-tier age group (say... 12-14) and built some kind of competitive series around it, I'm sure they'd lock in the kit as the only acceptable submission.  IMO (at the moment)... this XRP sounds to be just a product for parents that don't know about FIRST and/or don't want to put that much effort supporting their child.   I don't really see where the XRP companies could build-up a national/international program around this XRP, parallel to FIRST.  

So... my thoughts above were merely for those one-off parents that would want to just help their child with making their first robot.  Not that there would be some organization behind it or any competition.  Just... that they wanted to dip their toes into the pond of software, electronics and/or robotics.

However if we wanted to and can get @dronebot-workshop's permission...    I have no doubt we (the forum) could make something near exactly the same as the XRP.  If XRP took off and published software, we could even make "Bill'sBot" completely compatible.  If XRP doesn't take off, we could make one just as modular, and easy to assemble.  As you suggested, we could even make it more compelling by having more purpose built ability to do something that would hold more interest than just trudging around following a line.  We, the forum members, would supply the technical support in some thread of the forum.  Even the cranky among us would know it is children asking the questions and reply encouragingly.  It'd be a perfect entry, lead-in to Bill's videos and the rest of the forum for those that continue on.  Heck... there might be some old-kids here already that might find a robot kit compelling.

Hi @inq,

   I now see this a LOT about LEGO ... I mentioned Lego previously, thinking about what I had bought for my elder son some 2 and bit decades ago ... I had no idea the foundation of this is a competitive 'First Lego' challenge, and is wrapped around their products.

I just spent a few minutes following up the UK side, and found the IET (very roughly the IEEE of UK, but includes mechanical engineers, etc., following a merger of societies some time ago) is fronting it, with sponsors (Sage and Bosch are shown) presumably paying for kits of appropriate Lego, to enable schools to participate, and a list of challenges to achieve. I not sure, but my guess is the schools are not paying cash to be involved, although finding time, staff and other resources will not be easy.

There is a 7.6 hour long video of the '2022-23 Final at Harrogate'

... albeit I have only watched a few random short clips from it, so I am not recommending anyone watch it from start to finish!! ... But you might like to do the same .... my impression is of a rather different atmosphere to the video you showed.

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How this fits in with the $115 kits, I have no idea... and I presume from your comments, you don't know either.

So, IF there is a genuine 'need' or a 'market' or even a 'reason', for a dronebot clone or a variant of the $115 kit, along the lines you mention, then I agree with your suggestion.

At the moment, I am still not clear that the requirements of that IF are met. In part, this is for the same reason, I wasn't clear what the $115 kit was meant to achieve. Perhaps the 'launch' video in few days time will help?

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I am not involved with any libraries or government (local or national), but my guess is financing is a little different.

Libraries are paid by local councils, who are are responsible for provision of a very wide range of facilities. Local councils raise some funds directly, but rely on central government for a large chunk of their budget, and that budget has been reducing in real terms for a long time, whilst demands have increased.

So reducing library budgets by a few per cent every now and then, is an easy hit. Developing more 'interactive' facilties, like 3D printing is relatively new, but I suspect is being done on a self-financing basis, partly to make libraries to look more in touch as 'dead tree products' may look a little 'last millenium', but without hitting an already struggling financial position. So the chance of libraries subsidising anything for STEM, beyond their present involvement, in the UK, I suspect is very low. And whilst we have fundraising for charities like cancer research, and for providing 'little extras' for local schools, etc., I have never seen it for facilities like libraries, probably because most people would feel this was a facility they had already paid for, via taxation.

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Best wishes, Dave

Hi @inq et al,

  If, optimistically, we think the project will spawn a sufficiently interesting and useful set of docs, things to do, etc., then the question is, can we clone the hardware sufficiently closely for someone to perform most or all of the suggested activities. Some minor limitations or differences could probably be tolerated, but a complete rewrite of the software makes it no-viable.

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 Looking a little more closely into the XRP kit, the principal parts .. and wild guess prices in $ or £ are:

 2 brushed DC motors with optical (probably) encoder discs ...  £4

  1 tiny servo motor SG90? ..................................................£1

  1 ultrasonic sensor ..........................................................  £1

  2 DRV8835 dual H-bridge                                                     £1

  1 LSM6DSO  chip (needs checking more carefully)                  £8

  1 Pico W                                                                              £6

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Sub total                                                                              £21

This is without PCB, plastic chassis etc, small elctronic parts, connectors, buck converter.

The prices were around 1 off, but postage for literally 1 offs would be prohibitive ... maybe need to make batch of 5 or more.

The sensor chip LSM6DSO is obviously the worst .. I don't know about clones, etc, and even that price is just for a chip that comes in several varieties, so needs checking.

I am assuming, probably need to keep to Pico W, and maybe LSM6DSO, if published software is going to work?

So maybe $30/£30 on a good day?

Less than $115 certainly, providing issues like surface mount soldering and 3D printing is covered, without adding cost. I can see how this could work in well supported 'maker clubs' ... more difficult with a wider audience.

I can also see how someone in China (or other LCC) could clone it, and make a profit!

nb the plastic parts are available as .3mf files, and schematic is published. All looks to be open souce licensed.

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And I am still wondering if the result is worth it .. the support of 'things to do with it', will determine whether it's (facetiously, by armchair critics) perceived as better than a simple line following robot like:

  Best wishes, Dave

I went through your links again and it looks like the one here confirms its open-source and can even get the 3D printer files.  The software looks like a few libraries to make it a somewhat stepping-stone to FIRST systems.  It also appears to be geared to Python or one of the graphical languages like Scratch.   And their motherboard would be hard to duplicate.  It's well integrated and looks to be able to drive 4 motors and 2 servos along with connectors for range finder, line follower and the Qwik is just Sparkfun's special set of I2C sensors.  It probably can handle quite a few in addition to their ToF sensors including the 8x8 cell one I use.  IOW, It looks to be quite expandable.  

Hi @inq,

   Yes, most of what you say agrees with what I spotted, albeit I didn't notice the Sparkfun Qwiic as such, but at a glance, they are just JST connectors, so I just regarded them as 'normal' connectors to be duplicated.

Assuming you mean the PCB, by the term Motherboard .. not the main plastic frame ... Yes, it presents some challenges, but whether they are surmountable probably depends on how you see it being approached.

I haven't looked in detail, but at first glance, there is little that is 'high tech'.

The inertia etc. sensor is perhaps the hardest to solder and the most expensive to 'magic smoke'. There might be cheaper alternatives, but they might not work as well, and almost certainly require alternate software.

The most awkward circuit part is probably the buck regulator, and that functionality, could possibly be achieved by a cheap board product.  It appears to be 11v max in, 5V out upto 3.5A.

Designing and publishing an alternate PCB layout shouldn't be too hard. Soldering components will require some hot air or similar surface mount assembly, which means some basic skill and at least simple equipment ... I can see that a 'maker club' could cope with this, but one person on their own, without such tools, would find buying the official kit easier and probably cheaper, albeit they wouldn't have learnt some useful skills and enhanced their toolbox. Fabrication of the PCB obviously involves purchase, and again a club structure or similar, makes ordering 20 from China (say) much more realistic.

As for cost, I haven't looked into that. China seems have 10cm x 10cm (can be smaller) as a magic size for cheap boards. I suspect there are other lessons to learn in this area.

One bit that needs a little innovation is adding an encoder to the motor/wheels ... it is probably possible to buy the bits from AliExpress, but I am wondering about being a little more creative. I assume the $115 kit has integrated a 'fan-like' encoder disc, LED and photodiode integrated into the long tubes. I wouldn't suggest cloning that directly, just attempt to get the same functionality.

For a clone, the obvious motors are the yellow tube types, with a gearbox/axle, which seem to be about £1 each in small quantities. I haven't seen one close up, but most of the pictures suggest that the axle protudes on both sides, so the encoder 'fan' could be attached to the other side from the wheel. However, presently this is speculation. It would be helpful to know the resolution of the kit encoder, in terms of pulse per mm of wheel travel, although that can probably be compensated for, by changing a software value.

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I have been assuming that the plastic base design could be changed, providing certain features were duplicated. This maybe naive, in which case, things become more complicated. As to whether similar, but not 'official' designs would be allowed in the challenge competitions is another question. Of course, there could be a case for having sufficient shared kits for the actual competition, but rather more clones for development work, etc., so more people would have their own clone for the preparataion phase, plus, of course others, who are not involved in school competitions, and just want to try it out for themselves.

Publishing the plastic moulding designs implies some kind of flexibility, but how much?

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Also, watching one of Sparkfun's videos, the presenter points out that substantial discounts are available to numerous different groups .. but doesn't say how much!

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It is possible some simplification, particularly regarding the power options, could reduce the number of parts required and the complexity of the PCB. The power supply chip is rated at up to 5V 3.5A output, but the motors etc seem to be quite small. Such economies might prove counterproductive, but I am not sure.

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Perhaps, someone could resell a small number of blank PCBs on eBay or similar, without invoking too much legal attention, but populated boards could be a different matter, without showing they meet a million and one regulations. Similarly, 3D printed parts could be sold. (I am not interested in selling anything personally, just considering the wider aspects.)

Maybe you have an infrastructure that is more amenable and has sufficient resource to make it work?

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I am not sure if this all getting a bit complicated or still a good idea. What do you think? Would it fit with your maker club? I think it would struggle in the UK, albeit some individuals may do a 'go it alone' attempt.

Best wishes, Dave 

Posted by: @davee

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Designing and publishing an alternate PCB layout shouldn't be too hard. Soldering components will require some hot air or similar surface mount assembly, which means some basic skill and at least simple equipment ... I can see that a 'maker club' could cope with this, but one person on their own, without such tools, would find buying the official kit easier and probably cheaper, albeit they wouldn't have learnt some useful skills and enhanced their toolbox. Fabrication of the PCB obviously involves purchase, and again a club structure or similar, makes ordering 20 from China (say) much more realistic.

This is one part way outside my comfort area.  Even though I have a soldering station with one of those heat guns, I've never tried using it on those kind of components.  Don't even understand how you get the solder in between, under those components while something is blowing hot air over them.  Might as well be black magic to me.

And designing that board... I'm not there, but I see your point, impossible for the target audience without it being pre-made.

Posted by: @davee

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One bit that needs a little innovation is adding an encoder to the motor/wheels ...

Looking close at their pictures, although the motor/gear drive units look like the cheap, yellow ones you showed in your picture above (I have some of those)... theirs look to have at least the four/five wires needed for an integrated encoder along with the motor DC.  I've never seen those... and thus they're not the cheap things I was thinking.

Posted by: @davee

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I haven't seen one close up, but most of the pictures suggest that the axle protudes on both sides, so the encoder 'fan' could be attached to the other side from the wheel.

Yes, that is correct and I did one of my early bots (pre-forum) doing as you suggest using parts out of an old, balled mouse.

Posted by: @davee

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Publishing the plastic moulding designs implies some kind of flexibility, but how much?

They even showed a video of the chassis being 3D printed with the files they published.  It uses two balls on the front arms that would have to be purchased.  noting the slot running around the perimeter and the ultrasonic sensor "clipped" on, they have a pretty expandable design.  The one failing is they should have made the plan view circular, so placement of multiple ultrasonic/infrared/ToF range sensors could spray radially.  Not sure why something so obvious was missed.  

Posted by: @davee

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(I am not interested in selling anything personally, just considering the wider aspects.)

Yeah, me either!  And I don't thing the profit margin competing against the public service quotient is going to interest many people... oh... unless you're selling them at $115 a pop.  OH!... someone is already doing that.  Silly me! 🙄 😋 

Posted by: @davee

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I am not sure if this all getting a bit complicated or still a good idea. What do you think? Would it fit with your maker club? I think it would struggle in the UK, albeit some individuals may do a 'go it alone' attempt.

Hmmm... I can't see any way.  As mentioned, the area I live is not well-healed and thus people or more worried about house, heating and food costs than philanthropic considerations.  I'm certainly losing hope that it could be done without a pre-build/Chinese supplied PCB as you described above.

Being immodest for a moment 🤨 , I think if I get InqEgg working as I hope with the AI, is a far more compelling bot project than this XRP bot.  It is simpler to build by someone with light soldering skills.  It could probably even be bread boarded, if there was interest from someone just starting out.  It'd be cheaper, especially if you are willing to scrounge 18650 cells.  https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/user-robot-projects/inqegg-one-step-forward-two-steps-back/paged/6/#post-43125

But... considering only the usual suspects have shown interest... meaning curious, but even they are not considering making one, I don't see it getting that much uptake.  None the less, I have published everything I have as I go, so anyone could.  If there are any problems, the thread would have plenty of details for a manual / tech support and I'd be glad to field questions.

Net... net... I'll still sit in the video conference Wednesday, but, I'm not holding out that much hope its the next big thing.  I probably would have eventually gotten there, but you've kind of brought the negative aspects of it front and center.  (in a very nice, systematic and objective way).  😊