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Topic starter
2021-10-19 10:17 pm
This depends on knowing how much water flows out for a Zone watering task. (maybe as adjusted for a consistent drip feed watering) in terms of time. And also that watering is done zone at a time. The amount of water / time is to be found by actual measurements (stop watch and tank dip stick) and then those measurement are used consistently.
Here are some imaginary figures to illustrate what I mean.
Say Zone 1 requires 230 lites and that means the output pump is on for 5 minutes.
Just for easy of illustration say there are 5 zones all requiring 230 litres and ignore the dip feed output requirements got now. Also say the IBC tank has a full capacity of 1,000 litresNow we would not want to run the tank to empty so when the tank only has 50 litres left then watering should cease meaning that at 280 litres we are ok to do a zone watering (of 230 litres)
2 water level indicators are place to show:
- 1000 litres (full tank - to stop any river water supply)
- 280 litres (enough to water one zone)To continue the illustration say there is 800 litres in the tank when a water cycle commences.
1. Enough Water for zone 1 - yes - water for 5 minutes.2. At the end of Zone 1 another 50 litres of river water entered the tank so the water level is 800 - 230 + 50 = 620. But of course we do not know this we just know the level is above 280
3. We now assume no more river water enters the tank as we water. so
- Enough for Zone 2 - Yes (390 now left in tank - 280 water zone allowed mark)
- Enough for Zone 3 - Yes (160 now left in tank - 280 water zone allowed mark)
- Enough for Zone 4 - No. - choice wait a while to see if more river water arrives or fill to 280 mark with city water.4 And so on. I hope I have illustrated what I mean.
So if you feel this would work, then we need to see what extra is to be gained by obtaining a more precise water level reading. It would certainly mean that more choices can be made about which zone to water, especially if the zones vary in their water requirement. Also much to be gained in terms of varying the water given to a zone due to the prevailing weather etc. But I don't recall any of these very good and valid reasons being given as a project goal. (maybe time to move the goal posts
)
I'm not suggesting abandoning the search for the ideal tank water level measure, as I can see a good use for this, but also sometimes KISS is good too.
The issues I see are depending on measurements that could have been made a month or more ago. With irrigation things change, possibly a sprinkler head that was slow because or mud it it livens up and then consumes more water. When we plant another bed or two drip system usage goes up. Or we add or subtract a pot or two. Depending on one set of measurements made way back when is not cool. And even arriving at the initial measurements is not cool. It seems with this there would be constant re-calibration of the system.
In my mind I see a process where input water is stopped and system runs each zone and storing time and water usage. Really the most important piece of data is accurate water usage. And this could be run every so often. As for depending on the data system would error on the high side.
So if it has not been a requirement then I am suggesting let's move the goal posts.
Thanks for pointing out that we were not clear, as always much appreciated.
Topic starter
2021-10-19 10:21 pm
First, we should be talking inches feet and US gallons, since that's what WAMagee will be dealing in
Second, for a start, using only 2 sensors eliminates the ability to do a self-test for leaks.
Third, using your numbers, if there were 270 (=280 minus the 10 litres it takes to get below the sensor's limit) wouldn't it still be worth dumping what water WAS available, after all, we'd have 220 of the 230 needed - that's 96%. Surely we could dump it in the hope of getting new river water before we have to suck in city water for the next area.
I keep a window open for metric to whatever the F they call what we use. I want to become more metric literate and more people on this forum use it than don't. But thanks so much for thinking of me!
I think I spoke to the two sensor thing in my last reply but did not mention leak testing.
Topic starter
2021-10-19 10:30 pm
I still do miles per gallon, and often do inches and feet as some of my workshop tools are American. But arithmetic is easier when counting in 10's
Metric Imperial whatever just so we label what we are using, let's not say 22 and hope it is understood.
Posted by: @byron I was just playing devils advocate to see what a pared down base line solution could be.
I will keep saying the only bad idea is the one not presented. All this stuff, even if a bit of rehash is good stuff. We will get to solid requirements for sure. My capacitor testing is being perked, even if it not for this project. More on that later, if I find time.
2021-10-20 12:28 am
inches feet and US gallons
I still do miles per gallon, and often do inches and feet as some of my workshop tools are American. But arithmetic is easier when counting in 10's 😀 (and as far as I know all IBC tanks are rated at 1000 litres)
Remember, your gallons are not WAMagee's gallons 🙂
PS - I agree about metric, that's why the rest of the world changed over to it. There are still a few hold-outs around here and I usually just ask them something like "How many gills are there in a hogshead ?"
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
2021-10-20 12:36 am
Ministry of silly ideas
Probably the easiest way of making sure there are no drops of liquid on any of the "echo" type sensors would be to mount a servo with a long horn wrapped with a sponge or a flap of silicone beneath and beside the sensor (with the servo's 90 degree angle being the sensor face).
When you want to take a reading, just pass the servo arm from 0 to 180 and back to zero to have the sponge or silicone strip wipe across the sensor face twice, thereby removing any water droplets that might have condensed on the sensor face.
You'd probably have to replace the wiper every season.
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
Topic starter
2021-10-20 2:07 am
Ministry of silly ideas
Probably the easiest way of making sure there are no drops of liquid on any of the "echo" type sensors would be to mount a servo with a long horn wrapped with a sponge or a flap of silicone beneath and beside the sensor (with the servo's 90 degree angle being the sensor face).
When you want to take a reading, just pass the servo arm from 0 to 180 and back to zero to have the sponge or silicone strip wipe across the sensor face twice, thereby removing any water droplets that might have condensed on the sensor face.
You'd probably have to replace the wiper every season.
Why not:-)
2021-10-20 3:56 am
I still do miles per gallon, and often do inches and feet as some of my workshop tools are American. But arithmetic is easier when counting in 10's
Metric Imperial whatever just so we label what we are using, let's not say 22 and hope it is understood.
It's even worse than "metric" or Imperial because the US doesn't use Imperial gallons, so even saying 2 gallons is subject to misinterpretation.
I've tried to be careful by saying US gallons to distinguish.
1 US gallon = 3.79 litres but 1 Imperial gallon = 4.546 litres - whew !
So your 550 gallon tank could hold either 2500 litres (if they are Imperial gallons) or 2084 litres if they're US gallons. I'm betting on US gallons and that fits in nicely with Byron's statement that IBC tanks are 1000 litres (and you have two of them).
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
Topic starter
2021-10-20 3:18 pm
So your 550 gallon tank could hold either 2500 litres (if they are Imperial gallons) or 2084 litres if they're US gallons. I'm betting on US gallons and that fits in nicely with Byron's statement that IBC tanks are 1000 litres (and you have two of them).
The two 275 us gal tanks are marked both in us gals and liters. I like using metric for lengths here on the forum since by doing so I will make at least approximate conversions quickly without a calculator.
We are planning a trip to Portugal 2023 and I need to have my wife start talking in Portuguese all the time at home and that will help me learn it.
Topic starter
2021-10-20 6:27 pm
From what I've read water pressure is purely a function of depth and nothing to do with volume. In other words the pressure of water at 2' 61cm is the same in the ocean and a small tank. Is a 4" PVC pipe enough? Don't know.
Posted by: @will
That's true. You know that instinctively because you know that the water level in your 4" stack will be exactly the same as it is in the tank. Now imagine that you dig deeper and put in a longer stack with another 10' of length below ground, you know that the water level in the tank and in the extended pipe will STILL be the same.
So, water pressure increases as you move lower in the water because the pressure is generated by the weight of the water ABOVE and is unaffected by being pushed in from the sides or the bottom.
I would like to first prove beyond any doubt that I can get reasonable measurements in the 4" Measurement Stack. This would then let me go forward with setting up my "In Garage" environment to develop all or at least a significant part of the overall irrigation system.
AND the use of this depth sensor might eliminate the need for the 4" Measurement Stack. a small hole in the cap would be just fine.
Progress!
2021-10-20 6:41 pm
I would like to first prove beyond any doubt that I can get reasonable measurements in the 4" Measurement Stack. This would then let me go forward with setting up my "In Garage" environment to develop all or at least a significant part of the overall irrigation system.
AND the use of this depth sensor might eliminate the need for the 4" Measurement Stack. a small hole in the cap would be just fine.
Progress!
To test it, stand the 4" pipe you have on a piece of smooth waste board or shingle or plate and apply enough hot glue to prevent the joint from leaking.
Drop the sensor down to the bottom of the pipe.
Pour a quart of water into the top of the pipe; take a reading from the sensor; use a yardstick to "dip" the water in the pipe.
Rinse and repeat until the pipe is full of water.
Then you can compare the readings with the actuals and determine whether the sensor is sufficiently accurate to be your primary gauge.
You can do all this in your warm and cozy garage 🙂
PS - if there's a "raw" measurement that needs to be used in a calculation for depth, record the raw value as well.
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
Topic starter
2021-10-20 6:43 pm
We hijacked the "Capacitive sensing to determine liquid level" thread
My last reply to @will in this thread was to a post he made in the "Capacitive sensing to determine liquid level" thread. And it was likely me that let things run amuck and into a thread/topic that is not relevant. I think discussing "Capacitive sensing to determine liquid level" is something very well worth doing and we are confusing it with discussions that pertain to this Irrigation Project thread when they are not related to Capacitive sensing.
Will reacted
2021-10-20 6:47 pm
1 US gallon = 3.79 litres but 1 Imperial gallon = 4.546 litres
So a pint of bitter in USA will be less than the UK 😮 . And I though everything was bigger over there. 🍺
We are planning a trip to Portugal 2023 and I need to have my wife start talking in Portuguese all the time
My wife talks all the time, especially when I'm trying to concentrate on some programming effort. When ignoring some wifely distraction you will have the advantage of it being assumed you don't understand the language thus keeping in the good books. Smart move. 😎
the use of this depth sensor might eliminate the need for the 4" Measurement Stack. a small hole in the cap would be just fine
You could be onto a winner. 👍 Note the small metal cage used to keep the gauge upright, but off the bottom where bits of debris could effect the reading as show in the article.
2021-10-20 6:50 pm
1 US gallon = 3.79 litres but 1 Imperial gallon = 4.546 litres
So a pint of bitter in USA will be less than the UK 😮 . And I though everything was bigger over there. 🍺
Merchant pricing, being want it is, I'm sure that the price of a pint of bitter in the US wouldn't be any cheaper, but you'd take a hell of a lot longer to describe to them what you wanted 🙂
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
2021-10-20 6:57 pm
I would like to first prove beyond any doubt that I can get reasonable measurements in the 4" Measurement Stack.
My apologies if this is off track or has already been discussed (I haven't read this entire thread), but just looking at the above statement - could you use the calculation for a Water Column to determine the amount of water? If you know the area and the sensor provided the pressure, you could calculate the height of the water (I think that's the equation Pressure=gravity * height). It would require a pressure sensor at the bottom of the tube.