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2021-10-19 2:36 am
@wamagee Edison coined the term bug to describe a technical problem during the process of innovation over 140 years ago. That might be the only thing he actually invented lol!
First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.
2021-10-19 2:43 am
@ronalex4203
Probably resulting from his excessive 99% perspiration.
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
Topic starter
2021-10-19 5:12 am
Where the term "Bug" originated, and more important!
You probably know, but may not, but those first mainframes kept track of the 0'1 and 1's, Low's & Highs, Off and On with little magnetic doughnuts with I believe 3 wires passing through then by which magnetic state, positive or negative, could be set or read. Well a fly landed on one of those junctures and got fried/electrocuted and the setting and reading of that doughnut did not work.
Actually, the term "bug" was coined in 1947 when a moth landed in a relay and prevented it from operating. https://www.nationalgeographic.org/thisday/sep9/worlds-first-computer-bug/
Edison coined the term bug to describe a technical problem during the process of innovation over 140 years ago. That might be the only thing he actually invented lol!
Yes the term "Bug" might be to us that play with the internals of computers, both hardware and software, an interesting bit of trivia. At least to me it is fun to recall and discuss.
More important though I don't want to loose sight of why I am calling attention to a couple of the possible ways it found itself well embedded into computer jargon. I believe it was mainly because of hardware issues even though it appears Edison used it first in a non hardware related way.
I made an issue out of "Bugs" caused by the Animal Kingdom in computer hardware because I don't want to forget and want those working so diligently with me (@byron @will) to keep reminding me that we need to keep those tiny creatures away from the hardware. Because, my Irrigation System will be outdoors with lots of the tiny members of the Animal Kingdom that could play havoc with the many circuit boards and what have you.
Love you all, can't remember when I had this much fun!
Topic starter
2021-10-19 5:24 am
Did you know that for the LCS at least, they had women using knitting needles to construct the memory. IIRC, some of those magnetic systems were 5 wires as well as the 3 wire versions. Don't remember why, memory is fading,
LCS to me is the acronym I gave to the Library Control System we were developing, What does it mean to you? I am sure it is some computer and it's my ignorance on display here.
IIRC, not a clue what that stands for? And likely something I should know or will say, yea that's it.
Really interesting women using knitting needles to construct memory, never knew that before. Thx!
2021-10-19 5:44 am
@wamagee Sorry, I thought since you appear to have been in the tech community you would know Large Capacity Storage, but maybe I am dating myself. If I Recall Correctly is what IIRC stands for. I think the women worked for Hughes who were building the LCS for IBM.
First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.
Topic starter
2021-10-19 5:54 am
Sorry, I thought since you appear to have been in the tech community you would know Large Capacity Storage, but maybe I am dating myself. If I Recall Correctly is what IIRC stands for. I think the women worked for Hughes who were building the LCS for IBM.
No apology needed, I spent countless years in the IBM world and DASD Direct Access Storage Device was large capacity storage to me, very large. Been retired and away from my 30years of programming for 12 years. Getting back into it though! And I would guess that you might have a ways to go to date yourself past me, I am 77 years of age.
2021-10-19 1:54 pm
@ronalex4203
@wamagee Sorry, I thought since you appear to have been in the tech community you would know Large Capacity Storage, but maybe I am dating myself. If I Recall Correctly is what IIRC stands for. I think the women worked for Hughes who were building the LCS for IBM.
Unless you wish to be misled by some people... then please do not say you're sorry, and ask some new (and more modern) questions!
The more answers you get, the better is the result!
Please ask some more questions... we like it!
2021-10-19 4:09 pm
@wamagee 80 next March. I started IBM 1966, DASD then was RAMAC 205, 2311 and 360 was just coming out. It was normal to work 12 hours a day back then, kids today have no idea that at one time we were happy if our computers stayed up for 2 hours before crashing. It was worse than that but 2 hours was deigned by management to be the goal. I switched from hardware to software about 1970 and remained there for the next 35ish years.
First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.
2021-10-19 4:26 pm
@frogandtoad I am Canadian, so saying sorry is second nature to us. I don't understand the 'misled' part of your comment at all, but let's just move on, I am here to learn and so far @will has been a tremendous help. I have many questions and my damaged brain jumps around from one thing to another. The idea of a new thread for each topic is foreign to my daily modus operandi.
Maybe it makes more sense if I divulge that I am on 'the spectrum', mostly asperger but some ADHD as well in that I am easily distracted.
First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.
frogandtoad reacted
Topic starter
2021-10-19 5:05 pm
@wamagee 80 next March. I started IBM 1966, DASD then was RAMAC 205, 2311 and 360 was just coming out. It was normal to work 12 hours a day back then, kids today have no idea that at one time we were happy if our computers stayed up for 2 hours before crashing. It was worse than that but 2 hours was deigned by management to be the goal. I switched from hardware to software about 1970 and remained there for the next 35ish years.
Ok you have a couple years on me. I came out of a vocational high school in 1962 as a Cabinet Maker. Worked at that and other trades, carpentry etc., freelance remolding, buying, managing and maintaining rental properties until about 33 years of age. At that point started into collage with an Accounting major. In junior year took a required programming course and was immediately addicted to developing systems and programming. So used all available extra credits, and a few more, and also covered that major. Graduated in 1980 and took a position with Bayer USA. At that time I believe they were running a 158 mainframe with 3350 DASD. Pretty quick, if I remember right, they got into a 3033 mainframe and 3380 DASD. Could be all wrong in the numbers but I think it was something like that.
Long hours, yea 12 hours was close to normal. But I do remember in 1985 we implemented the Standard Cost part of the overall new Marketing and Accounting systems under development since I started in 1980. Being Chief Programmer at the time required my closest attention and I did one stint 33 hours straight.
Hope to interact and discover new adventures with you here on this forum!
2021-10-19 5:13 pm
Maybe I'm wrong, but I expect that the only time you'd be expecting dew (or maybe frost) is at night between sunset and sunrise and so temperature, not airspeed, would be the answer. Instead of feeding 100 mA into a 12V fan, you could feed it to, say, four 30ohm eighth watt resistors around the sensor "nozzle". That'd add the same power as the fan would have used (1.2 watts) as a mini-heater to prevent dew or frost from forming. It would also cut down maintenance, since the fan would probably need to have bugs and dust cleared away from it occasionally.
Once frost arrives irrigation needs are about done and wow just learned how to create a mini heater. And I do wonder what the effects of heat on the transducer might be.
You'd only be applying 1.2 watts, probably at night when it gets cold and dew is a potential hazard. At 1.2W the sensor would never get as hot as on a sunny day 🙂
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
Topic starter
2021-10-19 6:16 pm
On the subject of Condensation
You'd only be applying 1.2 watts, probably at night when it gets cold and dew is a potential hazard. At 1.2W the sensor would never get as hot as on a sunny day
If heat turns out to be the solution for condensation then your approach seems valid. For those unaware of @will's approach on 2021-10-18 1:07 pm @will wrote:
so temperature, not airspeed, would be the answer. Instead of feeding 100 mA into a 12V fan, you could feed it to, say, four 30ohm eighth watt resistors around the sensor "nozzle". That'd add the same power as the fan would have used (1.2 watts) as a mini-heater to prevent dew or frost from forming. It would also cut down maintenance, since the fan would probably need to have bugs and dust cleared away from it occasionally.
2021-10-19 8:16 pm
back to this topic as I've always had a bit of a niggling thought as to whether measuring the tank at more than 2 points is necessary. Heres my reasoning.
This depends on knowing how much water flows out for a Zone watering task. (maybe as adjusted for a consistent drip feed watering) in terms of time. And also that watering is done zone at a time. The amount of water / time is to be found by actual measurements (stop watch and tank dip stick) and then those measurement are used consistently.
Here are some imaginary figures to illustrate what I mean.
Say Zone 1 requires 230 lites and that means the output pump is on for 5 minutes.
Just for easy of illustration say there are 5 zones all requiring 230 litres and ignore the dip feed output requirements got now. Also say the IBC tank has a full capacity of 1,000 litres
Now we would not want to run the tank to empty so when the tank only has 50 litres left then watering should cease meaning that at 280 litres we are ok to do a zone watering (of 230 litres)
2 water level indicators are place to show:
- 1000 litres (full tank - to stop any river water supply)
- 280 litres (enough to water one zone)
To continue the illustration say there is 800 litres in the tank when a water cycle commences.
1. Enough Water for zone 1 - yes - water for 5 minutes.
2. At the end of Zone 1 another 50 litres of river water entered the tank so the water level is 800 - 230 + 50 = 620. But of course we do not know this we just know the level is above 280
3. We now assume no more river water enters the tank as we water. so
- Enough for Zone 2 - Yes (390 now left in tank - 280 water zone allowed mark)
- Enough for Zone 3 - Yes (160 now left in tank - 280 water zone allowed mark)
- Enough for Zone 4 - No. - choice wait a while to see if more river water arrives or fill to 280 mark with city water.
4 And so on. I hope I have illustrated what I mean.
So if you feel this would work, then we need to see what extra is to be gained by obtaining a more precise water level reading. It would certainly mean that more choices can be made about which zone to water, especially if the zones vary in their water requirement. Also much to be gained in terms of varying the water given to a zone due to the prevailing weather etc. But I don't recall any of these very good and valid reasons being given as a project goal. (maybe time to move the goal posts 😀)
I'm not suggesting abandoning the search for the ideal tank water level measure, as I can see a good use for this, but also sometimes KISS is good too. 😀
2021-10-19 9:34 pm
First, we should be talking inches feet and US gallons, since that's what WAMagee will be dealing in 🙂
Second, for a start, using only 2 sensors eliminates the ability to do a self-test for leaks.
Third, using your numbers, if there were 270 (=280 minus the 10 litres it takes to get below the sensor's limit) wouldn't it still be worth dumping what water WAS available, after all, we'd have 220 of the 230 needed - that's 96%. Surely we could dump it in the hope of getting new river water before we have to suck in city water for the next area.
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
2021-10-19 10:02 pm
inches feet and US gallons
I still do miles per gallon, and often do inches and feet as some of my workshop tools are American. But arithmetic is easier when counting in 10's 😀 (and as far as I know all IBC tanks are rated at 1000 litres)
Your 2nd point of testing for leaks is a good advantage of a water level sensor I do agree.
The 3rd point, well ok at 96% it could be valid to water and consider it done, but what if it was 80% or 70%. To make those decisions and perhaps to also ensure the zone gets 100% eventually would mean a more sophisticated set up of measuring water delivered and maybe remembering what was delivered and by how much to top up etc. The very simple method of either immediately topping up with city water to the 100% mark or checking the situation again after a wait time would probably not make much difference and does KISS.
But for sure better control does comes with better measurement capabilities that @wamagee et al are striving for. I was just playing devils advocate to see what a pared down base line solution could be.