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2021-10-11 9:27 pm
Overview of Water Flow V0004
With Version Number!
2021-10-11 9:38 pm
With Version Number!
V0004, well there sure is room for a lot of versions in that number. 😀 But I expect that soon to be included loopbacks (maybe), one way valves (probably) and some more stop valves(definitely) could get through a bunch of version numbers quite quickly.
And to clarify its V0004 BOTTOM diagram that I like. 👍
Topic starter
2021-10-11 9:56 pm
I think its all to do with preventing the pump from trying too hard to push water which isn't going anywhere, or not going as fast as the pump would like. It is just a bypass loop that is put in near the pump. I don't suppose you have central heating systems in your houses, but a bypass loop (direct from pump outlet to pump inlet is plumbed in near the central heating pump in UK houses.
My current pump does not have a bypass loop but never runs without significant demand.
Now the situation you bring up with drip systems using scarce amounts of water makes me think a bit. Since my tank is at least a wee bit higher than most drip zones and when near full at least 4', closer to 5' since it is raised on blocks and 2x8's, higher I will be looking for a small pump that behaves like the existing pump in that when not running water passes right through. Then many drip zones will do fine without the pump. Hmmm, glad you bought this up.
I could also have logic that waits to water pots until tank is near full, that way a pump will not be needed to raise the water to that level. And then let the pump run when down to city water level, pots are something that cannot be bypassed but for a few hours.
All of this will take some discovery, how much water does a Drip zone use with different levels of water in the tank. If there are material differences then Drip zone time could be appropriately adjusted and rechecked every so often through the Drip zone cycle.
Yes we have central heating, both a Hot Water Baseboard system and Forced Air that is part of our Air Conditioner that sits on the roof. This works really nice, we turn the heat down at night. A problem with Hot Water baseboards they take awhile to get the house warm in the morning. So at that point we kick in the Forced Air for a quick warm up.
Yea it gets cold here. Our planting zone is 6B-7A. We had a bit of frost on roof tops last night. We've supposed to be good until Oct 15 and that pretty much holds.
But I guess it all depends on the pump and the plumbing, but bear this in mind and perhaps, in this case, actually RTFM (reading the f' manual) will be a good idea.
Yep will read the manual and will most likely install a bypass loop as you described. Even if manual doesn't mention a bypass loop, it is not a big deal to do.
go scrumping in you yard
New term, I like it!
Topic starter
2021-10-11 10:15 pm
V0004, well there sure is room for a lot of versions in that number.
Well would rather be way too big than just a weeny bit short. Just think what it cost the world when most systems used two byte date fields. Y2K nightmares. The accounting and marketing systems I worked on for Bayer 1980-1985 had 4 byte date fields and we also had counter fields bigger than anticipated need.
But I expect that soon to be included loopbacks (maybe), one way valves (probably) and some more stop valves(definitely) could get through a bunch of version numbers quite quickly.
And to clarify its V0004 BOTTOM diagram that I like.
Loopbacks, for sure!
One-Way valves. Not unless there is an absolute need identified and right now bottom diagram doesn't need them. And I am glad you are on board with the lower diagram. No One-way valves there.
Be aware One-way valves can be problematic, they sometimes stick open. So when used need a way to detect this situation and eliminate or minimize issues. One very serious issue for example would be in either design with one-way valves, a one-way valve hangs open when there is no River Water pressure. The whole tank could empty into the empty River Water system. I am going to avoid them.
some more stop valves(definitely)
Where do you see more going?
And to clarify its V0004 BOTTOM diagram that I like.
YEP and next version release might be just the bottom part.
2021-10-11 11:04 pm
Loopbacks, for sure!
I mentioned them particularly as I saw the irrigation pump video that had a video I linked to showed a loop back, but I expect you need to balance it not correctly not to have all the water just circulating back to the tank. I suggest it defiantly needs exploring, but only proceed once you are certain about the requirements
Be aware One-way valves can be problemati
Again I only mention them because the video showed putting in a one way valve which I think was to keep the pump primed. I see some pumps state they are self priming, so I guess they are not always required.
.
some more stop valves(definitely)
Where do you see more going?
I think you are missing one in the river feed as the feed pipe goes all the way to the hose valves and I think you said you will have a valve at the source in case of leaks or maintenance etc.
I expect once you delve into the nitty gritty of the pluming more will emerge, but my expectation could be very flawed 😀
And Y2K, I remember it well, mostly a big panic over nothing. I got a good contract out of it when a company wanted assistance as their accounting system only had 2 year digits. But their accounting software authors soon produced an upgrade, so I ended up with a contract that did not require much work, and the pay was good. 😀
2021-10-12 12:05 am
Sorry guys, had a visitor (who brought me a Thanksgiving dinner) so I was otherwise occupied this afternoon.
I've since read the discussion and I also like Version 004 (bottom), but think 004 (top) is still desirable because it will allow using the taps without requiring river water. Judgement call 🙂
I like the underground watering schemes because they'll lose a lot less water than the much faster evaporation that'll happen in the sunshine.
I also noticed mention of moisture sensors and think they'd be a very useful addition because if it's cold, water won't evaporate as quickly and may not need to be added as fast. So those sensors might result in reduced consumption. The only concern I have is how to get the sensor results back to the control box. You'd probably have to bury the wiring to keep it away from the mower, pipes and local wildlife (including pets and grandchildren 🙂 but running them over 40-50 feet (of wire) away may result in signals too feeble to use. I don't have any experience with wiring or cables longer than a couple of feet, so I can't say if (or how much) trouble would result.
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
2021-10-12 12:26 am
I just noticed that the extra fine filter has crept back to the wrong side of the small pump in Overview 004 in both top and bottom diagrams again 🙂
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
Topic starter
2021-10-12 2:31 am
Loopbacks, for sure!
I mentioned them particularly as I saw the irrigation pump video that had a video I linked to showed a loop back, but I expect you need to balance it not correctly not to have all the water just circulating back to the tank. I suggest it defiantly needs exploring, but only proceed once you are certain about the requirements
My pump is a Monroe, they make them right here where I live. They are a great pump and expensive. But being made here lets me stop in to ask questions. There was NEVER a mention of a feedback loop. They do sell what they call a Smart Box that at the lowest level is a relay to start pump when a sprinkler valve is opened. One step up they hook up to a pressure sensor that shuts pump down if there is no water. Pump will burn out if no water. Next level up is a sensor that checks for deadheading (just spinning in water but nothing being used) by monitoring temperature. Wonder if a feed back loop would keep temperature under control. Guess it would depend on the size of loop. All things I need to keep in mind!
And Y2K, ... the pay was good.
Yep!
Topic starter
2021-10-12 2:41 am
The only concern I have is how to get the sensor results back to the control box. You'd probably have to bury the wiring to keep it away from the mower, pipes and local wildlife (including pets and grandchildren
I am thinking that when I get to moisture sensors there would be central control boxes located relatively close to what is being sensed. Then some local wireless technology, (Bluetooth, etc.) would send the data to my Master System. Not something I want to, don't have time, explore right now.
I've since read the discussion and I also like Version 004 (bottom), but think 004 (top) is still desirable because it will allow using the taps without requiring river water. Judgement call
Iyt comes down to how often they are needed when River Water is not available. For the return on the investment, very little, for the cost of complexity and reasonable risk of serious failure that not only empty's the tank but could send a whole bunch of City Water into the River Water system. There has to be a big benefit and I am not seeing it.
Topic starter
2021-10-12 2:42 am
I just noticed that the extra fine filter has crept back to the wrong side of the small pump in Overview 004 in both top and bottom diagrams again
It is still V0004, not been updated yet. But thanks for looking out for me!
Topic starter
2021-10-12 3:39 am
but think 004 (top) is still desirable because it will allow using the taps without requiring river water. Judgement call
In addition to my last comments on this subject, and possibly most important. Running hoses out of The Tank will drain it FAST. And the reason you would let hoses use tank is because there was no River Water available to refill them.
One advantage of previous design was that hoses could get River Water Pressure supplemented by pump pressure and it is a lot stronger that. Take a peek.
And old design V0003 did allow for hoses to "Drain The Tank".
2021-10-12 4:01 am
Number 004 bottom certainly prevents draining the tank, but at the cost of making the taps unavailable if theres no river water, which is worse ?
If unavailability of the taps is a major concern, you could add another pump and output line from the tank (as well as the feed through from the river). You could still turn it on from your internet app via a phone (or a switch near the tap) but you could have the control system shut the taps down after 10 minutes of use (or 1" of tank water or the like). If you still needed more water you'd have to start it again for another 10 minutes (or 1") of use.
That would provide you with a means of using the hoses any time you wanted, whether river water was available or not, but minimize the chance of accidentally running the tank dry.
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
2021-10-12 10:35 am
but think 004 (top) is still desirable because it will allow using the taps without requiring river water. Judgement call
If unavailability of the taps is a major concern, you could add another pump and output line from the tank (as well as the feed through from the river)
I was assuming, probably incorrectly, that the hose outlets would only be used by someone actually present, thus remote switching of the ability to use the hose outlets would not be a consideration. In that context V0004 TOP could be amended with a couple of manual shutoff valves, one to open/close the flow from the pump to the hose valves and another to open/close the feed to the sprinklers. So either hose outlet or sprinklers, but never both at the same time all the better for the watering algorithms. @will 's suggestion of implementing a tank/hose watering time limited ability would save accidental over use of your precious tank water.
But, if there is no river water to feed the hose outlets, this seems to indicate that water availability may be somewhat scarce at that time and on a minimal reserve of only about 2 days would you want to start using the tank water for hose use just in case the river flow continues to be in short supply?
So if your current tank arrangement is considered just about adequate for the plant watering (without the additional burden of hose usage), another tank into which river water is stored would mean a reserve mainly for the hose use, but also to be used as extra for plant watering in extremis.
Now of course this is current forbidden by SWMBO on the ground of making your yard look like a farmyard. But if your tanks were surrounded by an attractive fence with a trellis attached upon which you grow some nice clematis or maybe a climbing rose (or both) it could be considered as a garden enhancement. I think your tanks with all the electronic sensors will need protection from the sun with a roof anyway which indicates a structure of some sort. So sell it as constructing a splendid garden feature. Happy wife, happy life. 😀
2021-10-12 3:13 pm
Now of course this is current forbidden by SWMBO on the ground of making your yard look like a farmyard.
Wow, it's been forever since I've seen a "Rumple of the Bailey" reference. WAMagee may not understand the above acronym for the wife as "She Who Must Be Obeyed" 🙂
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
Topic starter
2021-10-12 4:57 pm
Overview of Water Flow V0005
In regards to each of your last posts, the two before the SWMBO post by @will, I think a little background might be helpful. In summer 2020 I hired a guy out of work because of COVID. He is a professional laborer and you might say professional and laborer don't go together. But if you watch someone who knows how to get a lot of very hard work done efficiently, as I did, you realize there is huge skill involved.
So with him we (he) dug trenches all over the yard and we put pipe in for the backyard lawn sprinklers and the drip zones. Lots of digging and this guy did in 4 hours what I estimated 2 days minimum and would have taken me 4 days if I could even get it done.
So one of the issues in the yard was limited access to water VIA a hose, there is one outlet for entire backyard on east side of house. At one time there was another on the west side but previous owner had a 3rd garage built that closed in the valve. I didn't think about this until we were working along and decided it would be great to have hose outlets all over the yard. So now we have 6 pretty well laid out hose outlets that wife and I can use any one of them fairly easy. But they were dependent on River Water being available.
So Me & Myself have been studying each of your last very thoughtful posts and with that recalling why the hose outlets were installed. Here goes, they were installed for convenient access to water anywhere in the yard. NOT to save using City Water, but that was a perceived benefit.
Now because of all our discussions Me & Myself have an opportunity for the best of both worlds. Hose outlets use River Water when available and then use City Water when River Water is not available. Below is V0005 of Water Flow chart that reflects this approach. Of course your feedback is invaluable.
