Here's a better version of the drawing. I've moved the river to hose and drips to the bottom to avoid the previous clutter. Colour codes are same as last one. Hopefully it'll be easier to read.
I don't know if the small pump is required ?
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
@Will I was creating this as you were making your last two comments. I decided to put it ahead of my responding to your latest comments because it might make for easier and more meaningful comments.
So you know this design was motivated by the following.
Byron posting 2021-10-10 10:44 am - I don't think your persuaded to run the river water direct to the tank
And I let Byron know that I could be motivated with this post on 2021-10-10 10:49 am
"Way back, even before joining this forum I was doing some preliminary design and it became obvious that delivering River Water directly into the tank would simplify things, a whole lot simpler, huge time simpler!
And I wrestled with this, me and myself went to the mat. Me wanted one approach, myself wanted the other. So we, me and myself, went through the use cases, some follow:"
And Byron's posting on 2021-10-10 11:08 am "Very reliable and quiet pumps are available, and you could reduce the pump output requirements with a suitable staggered zone watering schedule."
And my response to Byron on 2021-10-10 11:55 am "There is a huge pull to go with feeding the tank directly with River Water, the complexity it takes out of the system is beyond HUGE. Like I pointed out in last post Me and Myself had one heck of a wrestling match, it was like no one ever witnessed. BUT there was something missing in that wrestling match, there was no referee and likely why it seemed to last indefinitely. Really it is still going on, it was just the two of us and we very possibly overlooked some valid alternate approaches and we continually wrestle with that, what if there was a simpler approach?
So now it appears you are willing to jump in as the referee so Me and Myself would be fools to pass up the offer.
First, in the wrestling match there was pretty good agreement that turning the pump on to run the hose could be lived with but the Drip system needed River Water pressure to run independent of the expensive to run pump. And it is desirable to have quick squirts of water periodically, extremely desirable and I've contemplated having this ability.
You mentioned "have a redundant pump in the system" and I am now thinking that to be an avenue worth exploring. Never thought of it before. Could it be a relatively small pump just to supplement the pressure supplied by the tanks? This might require keeping tanks fairly full to build pressure. And then maybe not, anyhow lets discuss."
So my goal in putting together this new overview is to clarify between @Byron and myself what I took our conversation in the above posts to be and to let you know what I think @Byron and I set out to do. For sure there is nothing set in stone, this new overview represents trying to simplify the overall system by a huge amount, very,very, very huge amount. And yes of course it is a great idea to continue exploring other approaches.
I also put together the following comparison of this new Water Flow diagram with the previous in one image so as to make comparison simpler.
I presume that the huge DISadvantage of taking everything directly from the tank would be having to run the pump for everything but filling the tank with city water
The only time the Main pump runs is to supply the Sprinkler zones. There is enough pressure in the River Water unassisted by the pump to fill the tanks.
The Drip zones are supplied with the small pump.
The hose outlets do well on the unassisted pressure from River Water. That is the way we us then now, NO PUMP!
Anything added or subtracted from the tank can be measured in gallons and flow in/out can be calculated by taking the volume calculated and dividing by the elapsed time. But, that would require that only one input or output be active at any time (and any leaks were consistent over time).
System could be programmed, on request, to run one zone at a time computing how much water is used based on time and change in how much water is in tank. These values could be saved and then system would know if there is enough water and then run the zone for the saved time. Times computed would be fairly accurate since it is always pulling from the tank which should be more consistent than pulling from River Water with unknown pressure complicated by sometimes pulling from the tank. There is one variable I just thought of, and it is likely immaterial, the tank will have slight differences in pressure depending on how full the tank is. I'll be able to figure this out because water's weight and thus pressure is measured by how deep it is not by volume.
You already have estimates of outflows, as evidenced by the chart you posted previously, but I can't remember if you ever said that you watered by volume, by time, by availability or just by golly (let it run for "a while").
These values were by time with water coming out of a simulated tank VIA the pump. So might be different coming from pressurized River Water combined with the pump.
Here's a better version of the drawing. I've moved the river to hose and drips to the bottom to avoid the previous clutter. Colour codes are same as last one. Hopefully it'll be easier to read.
I don't know if the small pump is required ?
Big improvement in quality of drawing and that is an understatement.
Small pump is only intended to run Drip system.
Big pump should run sprinklers and not hose. Once you start pulling water from either the tank or River Water you add complexity/confusion. The new approach started by @byron and I was to simplify things.
What do you think of the new Water Flow proposal? Looking for issues that sometimes only YOU can find!
System could be programmed, on request, to run one zone at a time computing how much water is used based on time and change in how much water is in tank. These values could be saved and then system would know if there is enough water and then run the zone for the saved time. Times computed would be fairly accurate since it is always pulling from the tank which should be more consistent than pulling from River Water with unknown pressure complicated by sometimes pulling from the tank.
The latest version of the water flow diagram looks good. As some of these diagrams have all come in quick succession it would be good to see a version number on the diagrams so we don't confuse each other with the one being discussed.
The ability to calculate the tank water and tank outflow for a zone could be complicated by the second pump outflow for the drip feeds. But this outflow may be a constant if your drip feeds are dripping for 24/7. This may not be an issue for you anyway as I think you are going to calculate the the outflow for a zone based on experimentation, and then just run the main pump for the amount of time required to water a zone. The calculation of whether there is enough water in the tank to water the zone could then take into account the likely draw for the drip feeds.
From the diagram my understanding is as follows:
The diagram indicates that the river water goes to hose outlets, so I take it that these outlets are manually controlled valves or taps. Therefore I think you are showing that the river water is never shut off from the hose valves but there is a shut off valve on the leg to the water tank. This water tank valve remains open to deliver water to the tank whenever it is available and is only shut off when the tank is full.
There is a pump that delivers water to drip feeds. If it is direct to drip feeds then I think you will need to carefully consider a return loop from outlet back to inlet as its unlikely that the pump will deliver the exact requirements of the drippers. I think the best arrangement for the drip feed is to have an 'on demand' pump (auto switch on when outlet pressure drops) that feeds some small header tanks located near the drip feeds that can be shut off with a float valve. These header tanks would only need to be small and just raised a couple of feet above the ground and could be put in an attractively constructed insulated container. A nice shiplap cladding on these container would look nice. They could just look like some beehive boxes, But this is undoubted extra complexity and may not work for you.
As to the main large pump my statement that robust and silent pumps are available is from my experience of having a couple of 1 inch water garden water pumps and the use of an indoor mains water booster pump (an on demand pump), all of these were in my former property, and from my current dwelling the use of a large swimming pool filter pump and a septic tank compressed air motor thats runs 24/7. None of these pumps were in the least noisy and all have run for years without any problems, though the garden pump filters do need regular maintenance. BTW the swimming pool in my current house is no longer used and been filled in. It was not one constructed out of concrete but it was a simple arrangement of a large hole in the ground, padded out with sand, and lined with a plastic liner. These type of pools are available at not too much cost and would store large quantity of water over which a floor could be constructed. Just a thought.
So I had a quick look at irrigation pumps, and I expect you know a great deal more than me on this subject, but I did pick up some info like they should be connected to the tank with a flexible hose to save vibrations feeding though to other pvc connections made to the tank and should have one way valves to keep them primed. Annoyingly the pumps I glanced at did not specify their db level, but one could always install the pumps in a soundproof box and bolted down through a dense rubber mat to minimise vibrations. My aim would be to enable the pump to run in the silence of the night without being heard so I would probably even enclose a 'silent' pump in a sound proof enclosure. Noisy pumps would be a big no no for me.
Installing extra an extra redundant pump to take over if the main pump has problems, or perhaps installing an array of smaller pumps instead of one mighty pump could also be considerations.
What do you think of the new Water Flow proposal? Looking for issues that sometimes only YOU can find!
Well as you can see from my comments above I think its a good improvement from plan1. Once you have calculated the time required to water each zone, and how this equates to the water level in your tank it seems you made the whole arrangement nice and simple to operate and automate. I think it will enable you to program in watering timing delays should the tank water be too low to see if more river water arrives before using the city water thus achieving a major goal of minimising city water usage. The watering of zones direct from the tank also gives you precise control over how much water is used in total from whatever source, also achieving another major goal.
I forgot to give a link to one of the better sites with info on irrigation pumps. Not a site to buy from for @wamagee of course as its in the uk. But it gave me a better insight to irrigation pumps and all the paraphernalia that goes with them. Scroll dow a bit on the linked page for a video.
Sorry for waiting so long to reply. Having a fervor dictates COVID testing for both self and wife, so we did. Wife is still having issues so we are getting her to doc. Whole AM gone!
Quick overview of my yard. First, somewhere I have my yard in a document that I will look up and share. But real quick, my lot is about 110' 33.5 M by 60' 18.2 M. For veggies I have
5 4' 1.2M x 8' 2.4M beds.
I have another area about 30 9.1M x 25 7.62 M where there are melons this year.
I have another area about 12' 3.7M x 12' 3.7M for zucchini and squash.
I have two individually placed trellis about 8' 2.4M x 8' 2.4M, cucumbers and peas.
I have 3 trellis in a row that are about 2.5' .76M x 6' 1.8M For beans, more cumbers and some kind of different looking pumpkin.
I have an area about 2.5' x 23' with 11 comfrey plants
I have another area for grapes
Fruit Trees all over the place
3 peach
2 Pear
1 fig
1 pomegranate
2 apple
2 plum
Future 1 or 2 apricot
That does it for veggies, don't think I missed anything
Flowers, shrubs
My house faces North
Back Yard
South border bed 70' 21.3M x 4' 1.2M
Patio bed 24' 7.3M x 4'
1.2M
Sun room Bed 2 sides each 12' 3.6M x 2.5' .76M
Have 2 rows of some shrub about 1.5' .5M x 20' 6M
Front Yard East of driveway
Total of about 80' 24M x 3' .9M
Front Yard West of driveway
I have one shrub that will need water, intend on 1 or 2 more fruit trees in the future
There is a pump that delivers water to drip feeds. If it is direct to drip feeds then I think you will need to carefully consider a return loop from outlet back to inlet as its unlikely that the pump will deliver the exact requirements of the drippers.
I don't see a need for a return loop since drip lines now have pressure regulators and so work just fine with super pressure VIA combination of River Water Pressure and Pump pressure. If this becomes an issue because installing finer Drip devices there will be a need to first learn how to and retro-fit with a return loop. If it is something that requires piping all the way back from various flower/shrub and veggie beds that is near impossible. Some of my beds are, a good guess, 150' 45.72 M away.
Posted by: @byronThe calculation of whether there is enough water in the tank to water the zone could then take into account the likely draw for the drip feeds.
I perceive a separate calculation for all zones Drip and Sprinkler performed when that zone is the only thing running. With that information there will be no guessing, it will be based on fact, facts developed with a controlled system that only pulls water from the tank.
Posted by: @byron The diagram indicates that the river water goes to hose outlets, so I take it that these outlets are manually controlled valves or taps. Therefore I think you are showing that the river water is never shut off from the hose valves but there is a shut off valve on the leg to the water tank. This water tank valve remains open to deliver water to the tank whenever it is available and is only shut off when the tank is full.
Valve will be closable for stuff like leak and zone testing purposes.
Posted by: @byron Well as you can see from my comments above I think its a good improvement from plan1. Once you have calculated the time required to water each zone, and how this equates to the water level in your tank it seems you made the whole arrangement nice and simple to operate and automate. I think it will enable you to program in watering timing delays should the tank water be too low to see if more river water arrives before using the city water thus achieving a major goal of minimising city water usage. The watering of zones direct from the tank also gives you precise control over how much water is used in total from whatever source, also achieving another major goal.
For sure we are on the path to improvement, big improvement. Got some research into getting a smaller pump for the drip system AND If I can keep a full tank I might be able to run the drip system without a pump. My yard is fairly level but there is a slight slope away from the tanks, possibly a few inches.
Hope my outline of what needs watered doesn't scare you!
I forgot to give a link to one of the better sites with info on irrigation pumps. Not a site to buy from for @wamagee of course as its in the uk. But it gave me a better insight to irrigation pumps and all the paraphernalia that goes with them. Scroll dow a bit on the linked page for a video.
Sorry for waiting so long to reply. Having a fervor dictates COVID testing for both self and wife, so we did. Wife is still having issues so we are getting her to doc. Whole AM gone!
No need to apologize, your first priority is to take care of yourself and your family and nowadays just about any kind of problem worse than hangnails needs immediate attention and care !
Quick overview of my yard. First, somewhere I have my yard in a document that I will look up and share. But real quick, my lot is about 110' 33.5 M by 60' 18.2 M. For veggies I have
5 4' 1.2M x 8' 2.4M beds.
I have another area about 30 9.1M x 25 7.62 M where there are melons this year.
I have another area about 12' 3.7M x 12' 3.7M for zucchini and squash.
I have two individually placed trellis about 8' 2.4M x 8' 2.4M, cucumbers and peas.
I have 3 trellis in a row that are about 2.5' .76M x 6' 1.8M For beans, more cumbers and some kind of different looking pumpkin.
I have an area about 2.5' x 23' with 11 comfrey plants
I have another area for grapes
Fruit Trees all over the place
3 peach
2 Pear
1 fig
1 pomegranate
2 apple
2 plum
Future 1 or 2 apricot
That does it for veggies, don't think I missed anything
Flowers, shrubs
My house faces North
Back Yard
South border bed 70' 21.3M x 4' 1.2M
Patio bed 24' 7.3M x 4'
1.2M
Sun room Bed 2 sides each 12' 3.6M x 2.5' .76M
Have 2 rows of some shrub about 1.5' .5M x 20' 6M
Front Yard East of driveway
Total of about 80' 24M x 3' .9M
Front Yard West of driveway
I have one shrub that will need water, intend on 1 or 2 more fruit trees in the future
Pots, about 15 all over the place.
Damn, all you need is a couple of cows and a horse and you can relabel your place the Ponderosa ! No wonder you're spending so much time and attention to irrigation. With all that stuff, you might even be better off considering a couple more tanks in the long run.
I perceive a separate calculation for all zones Drip and Sprinkler performed when that zone is the only thing running. With that information there will be no guessing, it will be based on fact, facts developed with a controlled system that only pulls water from the tank.
Sounds good, I presume since each will be run separately that you'll be deciding when to stop by the drop in water level.
For sure we are on the path to improvement, big improvement. Got some research into getting a smaller pump for the drip system AND If I can keep a full tank I might be able to run the drip system without a pump. My yard is fairly level but there is a slight slope away from the tanks, possibly a few inches.
Hope my outline of what needs watered doesn't scare you!
It impresses (not scares) me. It's like a whole farm in way less than 1/4 acre. I'd definitely recommend that you think of adding more tankage though. Your usage estimates indicate that your current capacity would be exhausted in less than 4 days and Colorado river water availability is much more likely to wane than wax. So, unless you feel that you're saving more by growing your own food than you're spending on city water ...
Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
Hope my outline of what needs watered doesn't scare you!
Well all that lot, especially the fruit trees, does makes my mouth water. Your probably lucky I don't live nearby or I might revert to my youth and go scrumping in you yard. 😀 But no tomatoes!
I don't see a need for a return loop since drip lines now have pressure regulators
I think its all to do with preventing the pump from trying too hard to push water which isn't going anywhere, or not going as fast as the pump would like. It is just a bypass loop that is put in near the pump. I don't suppose you have central heating systems in your houses, but a bypass loop (direct from pump outlet to pump inlet is plumbed in near the central heating pump in UK houses. I think this is just in case all the radiators have been closed down and the pump cannot circulate its normal water flow, but the pump is still on.
I see the instructions for the irrigation pump in the video showed a loop back to the tank. (shortly after the pump outlet). In a small water butt pump (battery operated) I recently purchased when the pump is switch on and ready to go, but the hose sprinkler is still shut it automatically just pumps the water out of a relief valve back into the butt. Pull the sprinkler trigger and the water flows out. One is instructed not to close the spray outlet for too long if the pump is on or damage may occur.
But I guess it all depends on the pump and the plumbing, but bear this in mind and perhaps, in this case, actually RTFM (reading the f' manual) will be a good idea. 😎
Sounds good, I presume since each will be run separately that you'll be deciding when to stop by the drop in water level.
My initial thought was to look up the stats for a zone, get time and usage. Test tank level to assure there is enough, and a reasonable amount extra for safety, then run for the time calculated. Periodic testing for water usage would be good but we would need to stop input while a zone was running. And possible simultaneous running of Drip zones would also be prevented.
It is very possible that Drip zones will become just that and require very low water usage but run for a long time. This "and a reasonable amount extra for safety," would have to consider if a Drip zone was also running.
If we get to a point where there is not enough water for a zone we should stop system and restart later after there is water. This will also involve deciding how long to go without getting City Water involved. This is the kind of stuff that needs worked out yet.
Your usage estimates indicate that your current capacity would be exhausted in less than 4 days and Colorado river water availability is much more likely to wane than wax.
NO Way I will last 4 days, two days would be great. But, normally River Water is available some time during a 24 hour day and so can top of the tank sometime, or several times, every day. It will likely be filling as the zones are pulling water. In fact some zones will run at optimal times for the plants to thrive and system could wait for water to run other zones.
But there are times when the River Water supply goes south for even days. At this point, when I am on City Water, possibly a minimization algorithm goes into play. Grass does not get watered every day, more like every other day. Minimization might say every third day and for 2/3 the amount. Another minimization would be cutting water off for spots like the South border bed 70' 21.3M x 4' 1.2M that is almost totally shaded and can go considerable time without water. Another enhancement into the system might be soil sensors hooked up wireless and used to make minimization decisions.
More tanks, unless River Water becomes very, very difficult I will not be putting in more tanks. Although we have lots of veggies and fruit my wife insists on the yard not being farm like. And if you think the irrigation is difficult, well "you ain't seen nothing yet".
I am really confident driving this system with dependable hardware (electronics, pumps, valves, etc.) and well designed, developed and TESTED code will keep the Colorado River Water Source under control.
I am not done yet, really just starting this journey. Hoping that you @will and @byron stay on the ride. You two have been invaluable.
NO Way I will last 4 days, two days would be great.
@will was no doubt under the impression, as was I, that you had a 550 gal tank storage capacity and a 149.12 gallon per day outflow (as per a chart you put up).
But it seems you are a lot more thirsty than that. You may already be doing it, but the way we are encouraged to water the trees is via a pipe sunk into the soil to the level of the tree roots. Watering on top of the soil wastes a heck of a lot of water through evaporation.
But it seems you are a lot more thirsty than that. You may already be doing it, but the way we are encouraged to water the trees is via a pipe sunk into the soil to the level of the tree roots. Watering on top of the soil wastes a heck of a lot of water through evaporation.
We have our orchard areas covered with 4-5" 1.2-1.5M of wood chips. Water requirements there are minimal. A deep dive approach, at least to under chips would also help, Thx! Also our vege beds are always heavy mulched as are all our flower and shrub beds in the back yard.
In the front the beds are covered with landscape cloth and stone. Stones SUCK and like our backyard was at one time heavy with stone and we removed it, we will someday be taking all the stone from the front yard.
@will was no doubt under the impression, as was I, that you had a 550 gal tank storage capacity and a 149.12 gallon per day outflow (as per a chart you put up).
That is for my 5 grass zones which will be the significant water user. Drip zones I expect if managed properly will be less. But this is why I say 2 days instead of 4.
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