[Solved] Need advice on USB power

@davee USB-C is rapidly taking over even for simple headlights due in some/large part to the EU lawsuit.

I am only going from my poor memory, but my experience is about 50% of my recent devices are USB-C, the other half being Micro-B.

As an end user, I like USB-C because I don't need to fiddle with the plug to insert it the right way round. Another advantage is with USB-C on both ends, again I don't have to fiddle with what end goes where. I am a supporter of cables that are USB-C on each end and that are 'intelligible' enough to figure out what power to supply and what data rates to support. According to my tester manual, there are 7 different configurations possible with the 24 pin connector/cable.

Perhaps our views are coloured by our regional experience and it is different. 

I look forward to Bill's upcoming video/article, I am sure he will make sense out of all the various modes of operation.

Hi Ron @zander,

   I agree with you about the advantages of USB-C, including the 'fits both ways' convenience.

I just hope I don't acquire any other devices (like my headlight), with a USB-C connector that expects to receive power, but doesn't support the "PD" protocol!

I also look forward to Bill's upcoming presentation on the subject.

Best wishes and take care, Dave

@davee I too look forward to Bill's presentation. To the best of my knowledge the only 'things' using PD are high end laptops, phones, and tablets but I expect we will see more in the future.

Since I have a few cables with USB-A on one end and USB-C on the other end we know they can't be PD so all I need to do is find what they came with. If/when I do I will add an update here so we all know what might be possible.

I have to disagree with you on the wide spread use of USB-C. It is my understanding that is the direction Europe has legislated and I expect it will also happen here. I am sure you are aware of the legislation but for others, I include this  LINK

I will leave it to Bill to explain one way or the other about backward compatibility (including non PD power). I thought I saw a comment re CC1 being involved (like on the 6 pin adapter the OP showed us) but when I look up the use of CC1 (and CC2) they are Superspeed signals.

FYI, I have discovered I have at least one cable with USB-C on each end that does NOT pass any power according to the USB-C tester. Although I don't see anything, I suspect this is an e-cable? that has the electronics in it needed for PD operation. Again, I hope Bill covers that.

FYI Here is link to the USB-C tester. It is a Voltmeter, Ammeter and protocol analyzer. several buttons on the side to display graphs. Amazon link  HERE

And for the very curious here is a device that shows you what pins are connected  for a USB-C to USB-C cable HERE when used with a USB-C to USB-A then a converter to USB-C the tester clearly shows that only the power pins and USB-2 data pins are wired. I wonder if I can use it to uncover those pesky USB-2/3 cables we all seem to acquire that are power only no data?

Hi Ron,

  I don't think I have enough recently acquired things, which are powered via USB to comment about the relative percentages of USB-C compared to the predecessors. Smartphones we have, obviously, but they are Android, which adopted USB micro a long time ago, so moving to USB-C would probably have happened, with or without the EU's persuasion.

I don't see the pre-USB-C standards immediately disappearing, although I think they will diminish, also with or without legislation. I think the legislation might subdue proprietary competitors that achieve essentially the same technical ends.

Apple, I gather, was in a different position, but Apple's general proprietary 'everything' approach is partly the reason I have never bought any of their products, albeit their prices are usually too high as well.

I notice the last two phones we bought didn't have chargers ... sadly, the price didn't seem to reduce much, but having a charger that doesn't need to be changed with every new phone, still makes sense.

I have only ever had one tablet, and I don't presently see a reason to get another.

I don't count the various dev boards I have acquired, most of which are clearly clones of designs from some years ago, and came from China. I think they are all USB micro, although I see that is changing to USB-C in the newer ads. Buying a dev board or similar, for about $5 or less is always going to be a lottery, with 'features' that cause fun, challenge and frustration. 😀 

At work, (prior to retirement), I used a laptop with USB-C which was used to connect a pseudo docking station for extra video output, but power to the laptop still came in through a more traditional barrel plug, albeit as always, a different diameter to every other type of laptop I had seen. If my next laptop is USB-C powered, that will be fine, not that I am thinking of buying one for a while.

Perhaps there are other things that will adopt USB for power input, but they are not on my must-have radar yet. Maybe, the power increases going up to 240W (I think?) will change the scenery, but they will certainly be USB-C or later.

Headlight excepted, I don't think I have found a power only USB cable in my house. I have found a few "pre-USB-C" cables with the power wires made of very skimpy conductors that (at best) could only be suitable for a few 100mA, and sometimes snapped, usually also with USB micro plugs that expired within a few months. I suspect some came with a tiny non-smart phone, and were just cheap and nasty.

I will leave Bill to explain CC1/CC2 ... I am trusting, he will fill in some gaps in my understanding, on that and many other aspects!

Best wishes, Dave

@davee Obviously we live in different worlds in terms of devices and cables as I said before. I just checked Samsung which is the dominant Android player and they are USB-C, I think for a while now.

No, pre USB-C standards won't disappear as USB-C is backwards compatible. That is why my ESP32 boards with USB-C connectors work the same as the Micro-USB.

I have no idea what you are talking about re Apple. I have an Apple laptop, Windows mini, Linux mini and some Pi's. ALL of them have good points and bad points. Price wise a Wintel box configured with identical hardware costs about the same as the Apple equivalent. Apple has been built on BSD Unix for a very long time, and all the hardware was/is identical to Windows boxes except for the newer where Apple is going the same path as others in developing their own silicon for a few reasons. AMD has been around for a long time.

I notice you like to say clone and China a lot. What boards are made outside of China now or more properly Asia as some are Taiwanese, some Hong Kong and I even have boards from Malasia. The only boards I have that are clearly clone is an Arduino UNO clone (it is labelled as such)

I have dozens of boards, many different types and have yet to encounter a misbehaving board.

I have never seen a cable that was rated for less than 1A. About half are 1A and the other half 2.4A. Wire size is appropriate.

As I said earlier, there are many differences between NA and EU.

Who did you work for before retiring, and what is your education. Mine is IBM, NAS, Ron Alexander & Associates Inc, Tech (electronics) high school and 2 years (incomplete) community college. I am pretty much self educated.

Hi Ron @zander,

  I think this is getting a long way off-topic, but since you ask...

I don't know the best places to buy, but the cheapest (new) Apple laptop in 15-16" screen on Amazon is £1200, with 8GB memory and 256 GB SSD drive.

 The aged (6-7 years maybe?) HP laptop 15.6" Win 10, I am writing this on, cost £200 (new), and came with an obsolete version of Ubuntu. Albeit, I added Windows, SSD drive (960GB), memory upgrade (now 16GB) added about £200, plus recently a new keyboard for £13 😉. HP also published the service manual (free).

I also have a 4 year old Lenovo ~16" laptop (AMD 3500U), now running Win 11, which was about £400, to which I also added memory (total now 20GB), 960GB NVme, 230 GB SSD for around £200.

These two together, including extras, considerably less than the Apple.

Whilst Amazon only offered two new Apple iphones, the cheaper being £600 for iphone 14. My new Samsung was around £120 last year, and that was about twice the price of the Nokia it replaced.

Hence, skinflint me doesn't consider Apple.

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I know lots of stuff from companies associated with US and Europe are made in Malaysia, etc., particularly chip packaging, and Taiwan has one of the world leading chip fabs with some very well-known names as customers. However, I was mainly talking about boards from AliExpress, which are often 'clones' or 'strongly inspired' by other boards and circuits that can be found all over the Internet. Some are not only cheaper than a cup of shop coffee, but also shipped to me at a lower cost than I could get a small packet delivered to my next door neighbour. So I presume there is little scope for buying things outside of China, if they available inside.

Some very similar looking products also appear on Amazon and eBay, albeit at higher prices. The boards I have often appear to have chips from China fabs that are similarly 'inspired' by better known products. I am not claiming everything comes from China, but the similarities are difficult to miss. I tend to use phrases that you mention as a shorthand ... I am not claiming any special insight into supply chains, etc.

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There are indeed differences between North America and Europe. I guess that makes the World interesting, but also sometimes dangerous.

Sorry, but whilst I am not hiding any 'dodgy' secrets, I like a little privacy and don't publish my cv on the net.

Best wishes and take care, Dave

@davee For sure you can't compare an Apple to an HP or Lenovo. Would you expect a Rolls Royce or Bentley to cost the same as a VW?

AliExpress is similar to eBay except I have never had a problem with AliExpress other than the usual 18650 batteries which I also encountered on Amazon. Any lost product on Ali was promptly refunded and the one or two 'disappointing' products were refunded and I was told to keep them as shipping back from Canada is super expensive. I think I mentioned the number of orders I have done a day or so ago, it was 50 so if Ali was a real problem, I think I would have tripped on it by now. I will concede that timeliness is not their strong suit, and sometimes the shipping is more than the parts, but always the delivered price is cheaper than any other supplier.

BTW, when I mentioned the clone UNO, I should have also said I am not aware of any other boards in my possession being clones. They may be made under license (very common practice) but to the best of my knowledge, my Espressif boards say Espressif. Could they be ILLEGAL copies? I not only do not know or know how to know, I don't think any of us do.

I am not sure why you think clones are a problem, I note all your computers are made in China clones.

Hi Ron @zander,

 I don't have a RR or Bentley ...even if I could afford them, they are totally impractical for my lifestyle. I haven't even had a VW.

I am personally not convinced that there is a large technical difference between Apple and the others. Arguably, Apple often looks a bit more stylish, but I am interested in functionality, not style. As you, say, for a long time, they all used the same chips. Some leading programmes, that were only available for Apple, have historically given Apple an edge for people in certain areas, but the ones I am aware of, were of no interest to me. How Apple's home-grown chips will pan out is unclear.

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My experience of AliExpress's service, albeit less than yours, is rather similar. AliExpress is essentially a shipping service, which has provided refunds when appropriate, not a supplier. I was commenting about the products that arrived.

Perhaps one of our accidental differences, when I mention 'clone' regarding dev boards and the like, I mean a board which is functionally the same, or very close to a 'better known' product or circuit. I am not implying that anyone is misusing trademarks, etc. or otherwise deliberately trying to pretend they have come from a certain manufacturer that had nothing to do with it. When I describe something as a clone, please don't assume I am implying it must in some way be illegal.

(I would use the term 'fake' to imply something that is not what it pretends to be ... and I don't recall using the term 'fake'.)

So I am also not implying that a clone will necessarily a problem. Some of the circuits I have looked at have small changes, presumably reflecting what the board manufacturer could source.

For example, an ESP32 dev board I have, is generally the same as an Espressif circuit that is on the web, but the USB chip interface chip was an older design type, with a different pinout, than the one specified on the Espressif circuit. The board did not claim to be an Espressif board, merely an ESP32 dev board. In many cases, the differences would not be a problem for amateurs like ourselves, who can be flexible to work around any issues. In a commercial production scenario, any differences could cause major problems, but that is not my problem.

Best wishes and take care, Dave

@davee Thanks for those clarifications. Your long term memory is accurate, Apple and Amiga at one time dominated the music making business and Apple is still the computer that Adobe tests against (I am a customer of both Adobe and Apple) In general, at least when the industry was young IBM PC's and all it's clones were Business machines whereas Apple and Amiga was for the artistic community. Now since Apple evolved to the same or similar hardware it is a fairly level playing field. My Mac can run Windows if I wanted and I assume the reverse is true.

I am not aware of AliExpress being a shipping service, I think of it as a shell that individual sellers slot into. Amazon has that model as well on top of their own store which I don't think Ali has. I don't know how the shipping is done, it seems to vary a lot by vendor.

Now I am going to have to look at every board I have to see if any of them are possible clones. I do know one UNO is but it was advertised as such. I must admit, I thought when you and many others were saying clone I thought you were referring to illegal boards not licensed. Certainly in the last few years, many boards have had to source different parts due to the supply chain problems caused by the chip shortage and exasperated by COVID.

Hi Ron @zander,

  Music and artistic anything are two closed books to me, so I wouldn't buy an Apple for those reasons. 

IBM PCs and clones were relatively open books for anyone with a computing hardware interest, as the circuits, expansion board capability, BIOS, etc were all published, and hence much more interesting than Lisa and Macintosh, which looked like small 'sealed' boxes! (I sure some people looked inside, but I didn't have the opportunity and I don't remember it happening generally.)

I am not aware of running MacOs on a PC, although maybe it's possible. Of course, there are more variants from the Unix, GNU, Linux, etc. evolutionary forest than I can count, which do run on PCs, and are now increasingly becoming part of Microsoft's life.

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I presume neither of us has a detailed insight into how either Amazon or AliExpress works, but perhaps we can speculate, based on what is visible.

From an ordering viewpoint, AliExpress is reminiscent of Amazon Marketplace, in that it is advertising goods on behalf of 'independent' sellers, providing the various web services from displaying the products to collecting the money. Unlike Amazon, I haven't noticed AliExpress selling any 'own brand' products.

Amazon seems (in the main at least) to either hold products in one of its warehouses, and arranges the delivery directly, or passes the order, plus the money, to the seller to allow them to arrange delivery directly.

But if I order products from a number of AliExpress suppliers, particularly if I choose ones offering delivery in around 12 days, then I receive products in two or three levels of bagging. Each supplier has put its contribution into a small 'jiffy-like' bag. These bags are collected together at some distribution centre in China, and put in a larger 'jiffy-like' bag. I have a feeling they sometimes acquire a third surrounding plastic as well, but I might be getting confused about that. It seems that AliExpress then arranges for them to flown to the UK. I think they then contract UK delivery firms to complete the journey from a UK customs delivery centre, to my postbox. The whole delivery is also tracked, so that I am almost inundated with emails at each stage.

Other items do not seem to get this 'priority bagging' treatment, but still get a fair degree of tracking and email progress reporting, even if the whole order, including delivery, is about £4. The packaging seems similar to the first level packaging just described. They typically take nearer a month to appear, but it can vary widely. I presume AliExpress is still involved, at all stages, including a level of report monitoring in the UK.

This seems to have a roughly similar level of monitoring and delivery organisation to Amazon deliveries from the Amazon warehouses, but maybe AliExpress does hold any stock in warehouses to be delivered.

I assume your experience of AliExpress delivery is fairly similar.

Of course, as I said at the top, this is all speculation on my part. It could be completely wrong!!!

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To clarify your mention of licensing at the end of your message.

Some products may indeed involve licensing ... but I suspect many of things we can get from AliExpress, etc. are based on designs which are not tightly restricted by the need for explicit licencing arrangements.

Some are based on application notes from chip manufacturers, whose main interest is selling chips. Making app notes, data sheets, demo and dev boards etc. may be regarded as a necessary evil to ensure engineers can use and specify their products. In general, the end consumers who will buy units with the chips in, will never see any of this infrastructure, so if someone wants to buy some chips and put them on dev boards to sell directly, this is largely supporting the main business. Of course, I am not saying a chip manufacturer will take this attitude, and some may try to protect their own dev product sales, but I think it is a plausible suggestion in many cases, especially for chips that have been on the market for some time.

The case of Arduinos, etc. is different, but also 'flexible'. Many such circuits are published in an 'open source' style licence, so presumably anyone selling boards with the same or very similar circuits may claim to be covered, providing they do not claim their version is the 'genuine' product, such as by using trademarks inappropriately.

Personally, I would loosely describe both of these cases as 'clones' ... perhaps you have a better term?

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But as for what this has to do with the original topic question, I haven't the faintest idea!

Best wishes, Dave

@davee I don't think I ever met a truly great programmer who didn't have an artistic side. Mine is music and photography, but I can't paint worth a lick. It's to do with the right/left brain thing.

I can remember both Apple and IBM going open then closed (not in that particular order) I had a very close friend who had a small business selling what were called Hackintash computers. Both are very open today of course with the exception of the newer Apples with the home brew CPU's but today that is a minor take to create a drop in replacement.

As far as I know AliExpress does not have it's own store and that is the only difference I can think of.

I have not taken the time to check all my boards, but I will and get back to you.

You are right, nothing to do with the OP.