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Raspberry Pi 5 announced

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Ron
 Ron
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Check it out at https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-5/

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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(@dronebot-workshop)
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Yes, this was the first thing in my newsfeed when I woke up today.   Already put in a pre-order for an 8GB one at Pimoroni, but it isn't shipping from them until October 23. They also have the heatsink and fan, which I understand from the review today in Toms Hardware is essential - this is a hot piece of Pi!

And to think, 6 months ago you couldn't buy a Pi.

😎

 

Bill

"Never trust a computer you can’t throw out a window." — Steve Wozniak


   
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Ron
 Ron
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@dronebot-workshop They are also on PiShop.ca.

It looks like you need a new 5A!!! power supply (NO more battery operated projects), new case, new active cooling PLUS a few parts are add ons.

I will wait for the Pi500 with a boot NVMI M2 SSD. I have one now but it is USB3 connected on my Pi4. Also there should be a 16GB version coming as well, but maybe next year.

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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Inq
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I must get the same news feeds. 😆  This is more of a philosophical question.  And I expect that the answer will be different for everyone, for different reasons and for different projects.

In a world where every replacement product must be faster, smaller (in electronics world), bigger (in automotive world) at what point does a new generation RasPi lose its way?... Its purpose?

Remember, the RasPi was born to foster education.  At one point, it was said, the purchase of one RaspPi allowed them to put a second one in the hands of someone less fortunate... I believe the sited case was someone in Africa with limited means and no infrastructure to speak of.  It was meant to even hook up to an old cathode ray tube TV with RCA inputs.

  • The RaspPi 4 required us to use a special power supply.  The days of just using an old USB power supply off a five year old cell phone were gone.
  • It looks like the RaspPi 5 now requires active cooling.
  • At what point does it just become a sub-par mainstream desktop computer in a small form factor?  Does anyone here actually use a RasPi as their desktop computer?
  • For me, I see it as something extremely low-powered, dead silent to sit as an MQTT server that has to be up all the time.  I use a headless RasPi Zero W for this mundane duty.
  • Even as a higher brain function controller of other MPUs in a robot.  At what point does the extra power requirements of a newer RasPi 4 or 5 require far more serious power requirements and noise?  Remember the snowball affect of weight increase in a robot.  If you double the power requirements of the CPU, you have to add batteries, that weigh more and thus need larger servos, steppers, motors that require larger batteries, that require larger, stronger structures that require more batteries.
  • And what case would anyone ever put two 4K monitors on it!?  Or for that matter... any monitors on it?... before buying a real computer?

 

Now, if it costs the same, can be powered by my last generation cell phone charger and can run in some mode so I don't have to run a fan and sips the same amount of watts, yet still shows some significant performance increase... I'm all for it!  As I'll never need any monitors, keyboards or mice on it, I just as soon punt those features as well and save board space, and power requirements.   

Just thinking out loud here!  😋  I'm also curious what people are actually using RaspPi (Orange Pi, or other) for that an MPU can't do the job easier or a real desktop/laptop  computer couldn't do better.

VBR,

Inquisitive

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
Even usable on ESP-01S - Quickest Start Guide


   
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Ron
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@inq Well said, Dennis. I have thought much the same now for the last 2 generations. HOWEVER, my inner geek NEEDS one just because. 

Once things are organized here, one of my Pi4s will become a NAS, and my original plan was for a home server, but my new WiFi6e router + Alexa is doing enough of that job that I am not motivated to spend the time to configure a server.

I would like to get the Pi500 if they bring one out. That will become my *nix workstation with my M2 500GB SSD as the boot device.

I use VNC between my Apple laptop and mini Windows box, and between my Apple and a Pi4 but it is sometimes nice to have 2 keyboards and screens.

I wish them well, but like you, I fear they have lost sight of their original mission. They could still do both, make a less expensive Pi (under $50 FULLY equipped) as well as the latest high-tech Pi5 that will be closer to $150 with the required add-ons and that's before getting the extras that will soon become obvious.

 

 

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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(@dronebot-workshop)
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@inq If you're buying a Pi as a "desktop replacement" then there is really no point in using a Pi, some of the "NUC-style" PCs are so cheap and powerful that the Pi isn't really a great value.  

I've been loving these little "Beelink" PCs that they sell on Amazon, I've purchased four now. Intel I5 with 16GB of RAM and a 256GB SSD for 300 Canadian dollars (or less sometimes) is a great deal, especially when you consider it comes with Windows 11 installed. Easy to partition and add Linux, and they drive two 4K monitors with no problem at all.

Posted by: @inq

And what case would anyone ever put two 4K monitors on it!?  Or for that matter... any monitors on it?... before buying a real computer?

It doesn't work well with two 4K monitors, I tried it with a couple of 4K TVs and it performed poorly. But it does work well with just one 4K TV.

And there are LOTs of reasons to use a monitor with a PI. It can be used as a media center, and it's probably the best board out there for digital signage (which is what I use it for here). Both those applications require a display. 

😎

Bill

"Never trust a computer you can’t throw out a window." — Steve Wozniak


   
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Posted by: @zander

HOWEVER, my inner geek NEEDS one just because. 

That is why I prefaced it with... philosophical... cause I'm right there with you on that one. 🤣 

I really want an AMD 7950X3D with a Nvidia RX4090.  My news feeds keep tempting me with a new dropping price and price wars.  And I know that the reason for the price drops are the next generation versions are about to come out and they'll be faster.  

I try to justify the best CPU with my number crunching hobbies doing structural analysis on large FEM models.  I try to justify the GPU with my new interest in AI and using all those Cuda/Tensor cores on some undefined, nebulous Frankenstein's monster.  

I look at my 14 year old Intel i7 clunker and think... you're pretty long in the tooth aren't you old buddy.  

Then... I get a reality check!  At the $5000US needed for the computer I'm spec'ing... when on that computer, I still spend 99.9% of my time looking at code and thinking than compiling or writing a post on a forum.  So what if a new computer compiles in 10 seconds versus 30.   I don't game or create video content.  I don't even do the FEM or software development where I'm on a schedule or a deadline.  

I think I'm beginning to avoid the next shinny object.  Maybe. 🤣 

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
Even usable on ESP-01S - Quickest Start Guide


   
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Posted by: @dronebot-workshop

And there are LOTs of reasons to use a monitor with a PI. It can be used as a media center, and it's probably the best board out there for digital signage (which is what I use it for here). Both those applications require a display. 

NOW THAT... is one thing it sounds fit for!  I hadn't thought of that.  But by what you said, even the RasPi 4 can handle that 4K fine.  Would there be some aspect of that role where it needs more CPU performance?  Maybe some interactive vision/hearing functionality.  

I've also wondered... for instance, my Smart TV.  For all the downloadable apps for it, it doesn't seem to have the ability to do a simple browser.  If it did, you could use a mere ESP8266 webserver, point the TV's browser to it and it could cycle through all kinds of digital signage for... oh... about $3 + the TV. 

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
Even usable on ESP-01S - Quickest Start Guide


   
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Hi @inq (et al),

  I understand your point Inq, and sympathise with the view that cheapest R-Pi 5 with power supply and cooling, plus inevitable bits and pieces, which is heading in the direction of £100, assuming you already have keyboard, screen, etc., is some distance from the lowest budget prospects that they widely promoted at the original R-Pi launch. But maybe not that far away ....

---

Compare with the "$35" launch price some 11 years ago, which including power supply, etc, probably meant around £50 for a comparable working system in the UK.

And according to Bank of England online calculator, £50 in 2012 is about £68 now.

So yes, in UK prices, it has moved 'upmarket' in price somewhat, maybe representing around 50% increase. But maybe not enough to say that R-Pi have completely abandoned their original aims.

In their defence, the original R-Pi was the 'only game in town' at the time, with just two versions of RAM choice, certainly from R-Pi anyway 😀, so its price defined the entire philosophy -- and history suggests it was pretty successful.

Now there are not only R-Pi s 3-5, but also Picos, Pico Zeros W 1-2, and more specialist ones, like the Compute Modules and RP2040 chips, with Picos starting at £3.

So, to me that looks like R-Pi have a widened their coverage from an affordability viewpoint, and in both directions, which implies that even the very low budget consumers have a chance of getting their hands on small computers, albeit not the latest and greatest. For those of us who grew up with 6502s and Z80s, even a Pico looks like a supercomputer of that era!

Furthermore, the size and following of the 'movement' provides material which in general is well documented and supported, particularly for beginners. Of course, others, like Arduino have also done some excellent work in this area, though few of them have processors that were running Linux 11 years ago as the 'basic' OS. I tend to think it needs the 'high end' performance to provide the momentum and enthusiasm to encourage such support and development for most, if not all of the family.

Please note, I am not in any way reviewing the R-Pi 5 performance, or comparing it with alternatives, several of which deserve credit in their own niche areas. I am just saying that assuming its headline claims, like 2-3 x increase in CPU performance are justified, then I think R-Pi are still on a similar path to the one they started with, albeit maybe modified as it has matured with age and experience, and to stay in the marketplace for the next 10 years, they will need to continue to adapt to circumstances.

Just a personal view ... perhaps I am slightly biased as R-Pi has obvious links with the UK as its base, but otherwise I am unconnected with it.

Best wishes all .. I hope R-Pi 5 encourages new projects, and look forward to seeing Bill's (@dronebot-workshop) video on it, when he has received it and had time to research it to his impeccable standard, Dave

Postscript: As usual it takes so long for me to type something, several other posts appear.

@Inq notes R-Pi is power hungry, which makes it unfriendly to batteries ... I tend to agree, but that applies to some extent to all of the R-Pi 1-5 family. Obviously, they have been used in battery powered products, but my guess is that the majority have been mains powered.

I presume most R-Pi s 1-5 will use Linux or other 'nix inspired OS, which requires virtual memory support, etc. and is not the most power efficient. Also, it is clearly aimed at projects with HDMI monitor support and other 'full-size' PC like facilities. Many microcontroller projects, from flashing Blinky LEDs upwards have never required such facilities, but that isn't, and never has been, R-Pi s 1-5 market, any more than than 'Hello World' being the market for DEC's minis.

Of course, there are alternatives for certain tasks, such as 'small desktop PCs', that the R-Pi 5 would struggle to compete with. I presume these alternatives would also struggle to compete with adding camera modules, lots of GPIO pins and so on. It is a 'horses for courses' situation.

And don't forget, when thinking of the 'cheaper Good Old Days philosophy', they are still selling at least some of the lower performance/older R-Pis .. I saw R-Pi 3 and R-Pi 4 listed in Pi-Hut .. As well as the various Picos.

I just feel grateful of the choices that are now available and accessible ... the first computer I actually saw in front of me was at a University that I was on my short list to go to later that year. 

-------

As for R-Pi 4 vs R-Pi 5, then at the 4GB memory size, the price difference is £55 vs £59.30, and other bits like power supply and cooling are another £1 or two extra, so if you are buying for a new project, the cost difference appears to be around 10% on a like-for-like basis. I suspect most of us would go for the R-Pi 5, if buying for a one-off project.


   
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byron
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Posted by: @inq

my Smart TV.  For all the downloadable apps for it, it doesn't seem to have the ability to do a simple browser. 

Ah, now you have prompted by to kiss goodbye to £80 for a new rp5.  I've been meaning to hook up something like an rp4 to my TV to provide decent browsing on one of its spare hdmi ports for some while.  And reading your post is a reminder of projects yet to come to pass.  So a new rp5 for my plaything, and a delegated rp4 for the tv browsing.  Or should it be the other way round 🤔   Bgr me, I better get 2 rp5,s 


   
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Posted by: @davee

Compare with the "$35" launch price some 11 years ago, which including power supply, etc, probably meant around £50 for a comparable working system in the UK.

Why... aren't they designed, AND built there?

Posted by: @davee

And according to Bank of England online calculator, £50 in 2012 is about £68 now.

I understand the inflation aspect, but if I recall correctly, the 2 and 3 came out at the exact same price as the predecessor, at least here in the US.  So they were taking advantage of the economies of scale and cheaper (off the cutting edge) components to make a perfect IMO product.  They've seem to have lost site of that.

I also understand they have to compete, but as you said they have a huge, dedicated following because of their education philosophy, not them being cutting edge.  

At some point I feel they are going to undermine their own following and their own product line by such movements.  The RP2040 is merely an Arduino competitor and one that is not worthy of even an ESP8266 replacement, much less a 7 year old ESP32.  Its following is/will be because of the Raspberry name... again... not because it is even cutting edge by 7 year old technology.  

If they're willing to diversify as much as they have obviously have already, I would suggest, they keep one product that maintains the same power usage specs of say the model 3's and push how far they can take that power.  Can they double the CPU performance of a 3 with a new design?  Can they add a better GPU?  Can they make something with the capabilities of a 4 at a price point/power point of a 3?  I think they can.  They have some of the best people doing exactly that kind of work. 

Case in point... I just saw a test using AMD's best chip 7950X.  Somehow they de-rated it to use only 65W.  It still beat out Intel's best i9 chip running at 280W in nearly all benchmarks.  While running it also only got up to 55C.  IOW... Although still using active, high-end cooling, it needed far less and was far quieter than the Intel at full tilt.  The point being... the technology is out there and gets cheaper, faster all the time.  Pieces that were cutting edge a couple of years ago could get a second life in the super-high-volume that is Raspberry Pi.  Surely, there are some chips out there that will accomplish a 4's output specs at a 3's price and power specs.  If they made it so the GPU could be harnessed for software development instead of pumping stupid pixels around, that'd be the icing on the cake for me!

Otherwise, the dozen Raspberry Pies I have now will be my last.

IMO,

Inq

 

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
Even usable on ESP-01S - Quickest Start Guide


   
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Posted by: @byron

Posted by: @inq

my Smart TV.  For all the downloadable apps for it, it doesn't seem to have the ability to do a simple browser. 

Ah, now you have prompted by to kiss goodbye to £80 for a new rp5.  I've been meaning to hook up something like an rp4 to my TV to provide decent browsing on one of its spare hdmi ports for some while.  And reading your post is a reminder of projects yet to come to pass.  So a new rp5 for my plaything, and a delegated rp4 for the tv browsing.  Or should it be the other way round 🤔   Bgr me, I better get 2 rp5,s 

It's not like I miss a browser on my smart TV, I just wondered why there isn't one.  Even if my TV provided that ability, the interacting would be a PITA.  Maybe that's why.  I don't keep a keyboard in the living room.  Although my TV has the voice recognition and can find a movie or show, I'm not so sure it's robust enough for my browsing duties.  It'd be easier for me to just pick up a tablet or get up and go into the office and do it on a real keyboard.

But for a rotating picture presentation type thing or possibly an interactive Kiosk... a browser pointing to a $3, ESP8266 webserver powered from a spare USB outlet on the TV makes far more sense to me than having to add an expensive RasPi 5/Power Supply.  Zero chance of a virus.  Almost zero chance of it being hacked.  In a public setting, the RasPi has too many vulnerabilities.  

 

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
Even usable on ESP-01S - Quickest Start Guide


   
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Ron
 Ron
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@dronebot-workshop My MinWin cost $269.23 for 16GB RAM, 500GB SSD, Dual 4k@60Hz, WiFi5/BT with both Win 10 and 11 PRO installed. To save desk space I use VNC from my Mac laptop connected to a 5K 24" display.

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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Ron
 Ron
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@inq I agree; my inner geek WANTS that $5,000 toy (I have owned at least a dozen), but the reality is that the few microseconds between key presses while writing this spent in idle loop time of a 20% faster clock is pointless. 

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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Ron
 Ron
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@inq My current Smart TV also does not appear to have a browser, one of my earlier TV's did though, in fact it was the first I had. However, my Apple laptop can 'throw' it's display onto the TV in one of two ways. Not sure that is relevant to your post, but thought it might be worth knowing.

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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