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Hardware Problem - Powering Confusion

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(@davee)
Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1547
 

Hi @inq,

  Re:

8058 PXL20231109131134028

The second from the left, is not (IMHO) a development board, but rather a module, typically aimed at the millions plus market. The others are indeed dev boards.

The actual ESP8266 microcontroller is in a package about 6mm square, with 40-something(?) pins, under the metal hat, along with resistors, capacitors flash memory, etc. The parts under the hat form a module, which is claimed to meet various FCC, CE and so on, regarding emissions, radio transmissions etc., which tends to mean a manufacturer can fit the whole module or a more specific gadget, with minimal compliance (re)testing of the stuff relating to modules functions.

Note it comes with the 'postage stamp' edge connections which means the whole module can be soldered to a larger 'motherboard' PCB using most of the usual methods, including reflow.

Hence my comments about it being aimed as a 'generic' component market, that expects other parts to be connected to it, not a dev board.

This module has 2mm 'pin' spacing ... it is a lot smaller (1mm? perhaps) on the ESP32-S3 equivalents ... definitely not dev board friendly!!

As for whether all dev boards are as well designed as you would like, that is a different debate.

Best wishes, Dave


   
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Inq
 Inq
(@inq)
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Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 1900
Topic starter  

Posted by: @davee

The second from the left, is not (IMHO) a development board, but rather a module, typically aimed at the millions plus market. The others are indeed dev boards.

The actual ESP8266 microcontroller is in a package about 6mm square, with 40-something(?) pins, under the metal hat, along with resistors, capacitors flash memory, etc.

Yes, I misspoke and do agree.  The yellow arrow is pointing to the actual ESP8266 chip and by-in-large everything on the #1 is under the metal hat.  #2 just exposes more of the 40-something pins out to the headers... and for all I know may have additional pull-up / down resistors, capacitors and other stuff.  I certainly wouldn't claim to know.  #2 is what's commonly used on #3 & #4.  Although #1 might be called a development board, it is quite painful to use.  Although the pin spacing is the same, it can't be used on a breadboard cause the two rows can't straddle the breadboard centerline.  As mentioned earlier, it has to have support hardware to put it in program or run mode.  It also has to have separate USB support to do the programming.  

I use programmer next to the meter for ESP-01, ESP-12e, ESP-07, etc.

Test

 

3 lines of code = InqPortal = Complete IoT, App, Web Server w/ GUI Admin Client, WiFi Manager, Drag & Drop File Manager, OTA, Performance Metrics, Web Socket Comms, Easy App API, All running on ESP8266...
Even usable on ESP-01S - Quickest Start Guide


   
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Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@davee Everything I was referring to were NOT dev boards. They have all the required jumpers, pull down/up resistors and RC circuits under the HAT or on the board. I am referring to all the 'boards' between a full dev board and a raw 'chip', including the raw chip. Our friends at RNT have a pinout that documents some of what we have been discussing.

I just realized that none of us are on the same page, and everyone is probably interested in a different page. I think Dennis is the pragmatist in this scenario; he wants a board that consumes as little power as possible, is fully wired, and has all the R and C installed if possible. I don't mind a bare chip as it gives me complete control if I need it, but I am not a masochist; if a fully populated or partially populated board gives me what I want, then great.

You said earlier that some 'boards' are 'missing' parts due to market segment. That is 100% correct and accounts for why some boards are 'missing' parts from the hobbyist perspective.

 

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@inq This breadboard solves the straddle problem (Bill told us about it a while ago) and I got a couple https://amz.run/7IhX

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@davee FYI ESP-01 is an ESP8266 https://amz.run/7IhY . Different market segments different packaging.

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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(@davee)
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Joined: 3 years ago
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Hi Ron @zander,

  I don't know of any definitive definitions, but in my opinion, a board with 0.1 inch pins for push on wire connections, and a USB socket for connection to an IDE to DEVELOP code, etc. is not generally suitable for incorporating in a commercial end-product, but is useful for prototyping both hardware and software, so qualifies for the general description of a development board.

Most of the ESP32 and ESP8266 boards discussed on this forum would fall in this category, but the modules for both ESP8266 and ESP32 with the castellated board outlines would not.

Most of the chip manufacturer's (TI, Analog Devices, ST micro, etc.) also produce development boards that broadly fit similar definitions, albeit some chips (e.g. high performance operational amplifiers) are hardware only based, and do not need USB + software IDE support, but will still incorporate features to make them easier to use on a bench.

Development boards are usually only sold (or donated if you appear likely to create a product that will use large quantities of the chip) to people who are intending to use it as a model to find out about a chip and as a head start towards prototyping a product.

Traditionally, such boards have only been made in small quantities, with explicit conditions that they are NOT intended to be incorporated or directly used as products in their own right. I think chip manufacturers were producing such development boards long before microprocessors were invented.

-----------

Of course, some such products are now being sold to hobbyists, etc. who may look at them as end-user products, but this really just a sideline business that has been expanded, particularly by little-known companies in China, plus a few others like Adafruit who have taken advantage of the changing circumstances enabling new products, plus the disappearance of concerns like Heathkit and RadioShack.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Certain well-known products, most obviously Arduinos and the Raspberry Pi 1-5 family, have effectively created a new market trend, with boards that incorporate both the development board features, whilst also aiming at certain end-user and specialist manufacturing markets.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By contrast to all of the above, a board or module designed to be soldered to a 'motherboard', with minimal or no immediate support for prototyping connections or connection to a software develpment IDE, is effectively a 'component' for manufacturing, and definitely not a development board in its own right. It is intended to be shipped in volume, to other manufacturers who will incorporate it into their products.

Typical examples of the latter are the ESP32 and ESP8266 modules with castelated board outlines for production line soldering onto a larger motherboard, such as the ESP-12F that @Inq has been testing. Another example would be the Raspberry Pi Compute Module.

In addition, the technique is increasingly being adopted by other chip manufacturers, such as AMD/Xilinx for FPGA modules, where high pin count BGA FPGAs are combined with memory, oscillators, and so on to form firmware defined computational blocks that can be built into servers and visual recognition applications.

---------------

Of course, we all have different experiences and backgrounds, so I appreciate you may have different views. I do not pretend my description above is definitive, but merely a description of what I have observed. I hope itis informative.

Best wishes and take care my friend, Dave

 


   
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(@davee)
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Joined: 3 years ago
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Hi Ron @zander,

re: @davee FYI ESP-01 is an ESP8266 > https://amz.run/7IhY <. Different market segments different packaging.

Sorry, I am sure this will look like nit-picking, but ...

The esp8266 is a surface mount microcontroller, about 6mm square package with about 32 pins.

The ESP-01 is one of many boards and modules which incorporate an ESP8266 alongside other parts to make a more readily usable product.

Wikipedia has a summary of some of them at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESP8266

------

IMHO The considerable range of boards and modules incorporating the ESP8266 is both a blessing and a curse.

It is a blessing, in that enables convenient access to a device whose physical size presents challenges, and whose application often requires extra resources, like memory, crystal oscillators, that can be conveniently purchased as a 'package deal' that is far cheaper than could be obtained separately in small quantities by people in our position, and without having to spend a long time wiring up 'standard' configurations.

The curse is that many of these boards and modules are not well documented, and consequently tend to be misunderstood. Even those boards and modules that get 'above average' levels of documentation are frequently misrepresented by other vocal people who have failed to comprehend the significance of the information available from the definitive sources, i.e. the manufacturers, assuming it is up-to-date and accurate.

Much of the last few days discussion has revolved around boards and modules containing an ESP8266, but virtually none of the tricky and contentious points have been down the ESP8266 itself, but rather the 'extra' components and wiring built into the modules and boards to support the device.

So I feel it is important to understand the structure, and hence, as a lifelong 'detail addict', I try to explain it. I understand that others may find my obsessions infuriating, but all I can do is sympathise, apologise and try to help them.

Best wishes and take care, Dave


   
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Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@davee Ok, as long as youj are agreeing the ESP-01 is an ESP8266 I am good.

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@davee What? >> https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/help-wanted/hardware-problem-powering-confusion/paged/4/#post-43780

no response needed or wanted though.

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@davee Thanks for the link, very informative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESP8266

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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(@davee)
Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1547
 

Hi Ron @zander,

@davee Ok, as long as youj are agreeing the ESP-01 is an ESP8266 I am good.

Nearly ... 🤨 🤨 

--------------------

I own a Nissan Micra with a 1.0 litre engine

A 1.0 litre engine is Not a Nissan Micra

------

I could buy an ESP-01 with an ESP8266 microcontroller on the board, from Amazon

An ESP8266 is Not an ESP-01

------------------

Apologies for trying to have the last say, Dave


   
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Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@davee Are you kidding me, in my dictionary your picture is beside the definition of last say.

Once again my language use gets me in difficulty. In your Wiki link the entry for ESP8266 has these words in the 2nd para

The chip was popularized in the English-speaking maker community in August 2014 via the ESP-01 module, 

I read that as an ESP-01 IS an ESP8266.

BTW, cute car.

And it should appeal to your inner geek

 
 
The car could last for in excess of 500,000km but you need to be mechanically sympathetic and if you are, you will look after your engine and transmission by weekly checks on oils and coolant. Change engine oil every 6 months, transmission oils yearly. Don`t drive at less than 1500rpm or more than 4000rpm.

 

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
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Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@davee I just noticed you did agree.

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
DaveE reacted
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Inst-Tech
(@inst-tech)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 541
 

quote:

PS - Kind of hoping the electronic experts @davee, @inst-tech will chime in and tell us why or to at least get over it... that it's made in China.  Kind of like a form of Reverse Polish Notation... different set of logic behind it. 😋 inq 

@ing,

I suspect that the reason that the boards are designed with pull-ups or pull downs is because in this case of the ESP01, and esp8266nodeMCU's, they would be require to run in normal operation. As you can see from the schematics that Swiss Guy, (and others) have provided. You must pull the RST high to enable the board to run normally. So my guess is that the vast majority of users will be using that mode.. and those more adventurist users will proceed with due diligence in the re-configuration of the boards to use the various sleep modes.

I do not confess to know what the designers really intended.. but it makes sense to me anyway..

regards,

LouisR 

LouisR


   
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