Notifications
Clear all

Arduino IDE 2

71 Posts
7 Users
19 Likes
3,511 Views
Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@davee Sorry Dave, it looks like you missed a point. There is NO portable solution for Apple. However, since a 'standard' user on MacOS has NO direct access they can therefore NOT mess with the install and the portable method is not needed. See my latest pic 2 above. 

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
ReplyQuote
Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@davee Keep in mind, the root cause of many problems labeled by newbies as IDE or library are they didn't RTFM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's only a question of time before they encounter an old unmaintained project with manual (before the IDE took it on) library install directions. Those instructions are mostly correct and can work but WHY take a chance of messing up when the IDE will do it for you.

I have spent 10's of thousands of hours doing help desk and support work over my 60+ year career and I can say with highest confidence that a brief reading of a manual would have made me unneeded in over 90% of the cases.

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
ReplyQuote
(@davee)
Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1547
 

Hi Ron @zander,

Re Sorry Dave, it looks like you missed a point. There is NO portable solution for..

 Ahhh ...Sorry ... I didn't miss 'Portable' ... but I may have misinterpreted it ...

(I am not an Apple user, so I can only imagine these machines.)

--------------------

'Portable' means the ability to run from USB sticks, etc ... which invites all sorts of devious trickery (far beyond RTFM troubles) for those so inclined. I can understand why that might be restricted by default. In recent years, it has been possible to limit that access in Windows, although it is not limited in the standard retail configuration.

However, a 'portable' program has a confined directory structure, which helps to facilitate control of a more 'normal' installation, including modest modifications, like choosing a different folder name on the internal or network drive(s).

I was hoping a 'standard' Apple user still had some control as to how and where programmes, data and so on are stored during installation ... without that capability, my suggestion is obviously dead in the water. My apologies if I misunderstood your meaning.

As our forum users are usually using their personal hardware, I had assumed they will be able to invoke a limited form of configuration if it is needed, without risking the integrity of the whole device. Or perhaps that is me being naive again....

--------

Windows usually allows programs to be loaded to a different folder. However, some Windows programs use fixed registry locations for their housekeeping, assuming there is only one instance of the software and hence running two different versions of a program, there is a risk of 'hidden' overwrite errors.

In principle, I guess a problem, parallel to Windows registry one, could apply to Linux, if one or configuration files are 'accidentally' shared between more than 1 instance.

My concerns for both Windows and Linux are probably more dependent upon the application program than the operating system. I have no idea how amenable the Arduino IDE is to multiple installations.

Given that it is possible to have 1.8 and 2.0 on the same machine, and that Arduino is available on a 'nightly build' schedule, I would hope that each installation remains separate, but I haven't tested it.

---------------------

Out of curiosity .. can an Apple machine cope with multiple versions of the IDE? ... for example, if you wanted to join their test team, could you have a 'standard' build and also the nightly build, and compare the performance of the two builds on a single machine?

Or perhaps this is only possible by doing the equivalent of 'rooting' an Android phone?

---------------------

Best wishes,

Dave


   
ReplyQuote
Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@davee NO, can't have 2 versions other than IDE1 and IDE2. I can't ever remember seeing a MacOS installer asking for a install folder. The funny (to me) thing is that Windows as it was designed would have behaved like my Mac, but they deviated soon after they went live and it got very bad for a while before some semblance of order cam back but it's still very loose. Ihn the corporate market of couse it's different, but the home hobby market I would bet 99% of all users are the admin so can easily move, rename, delete files they are not supposed to touch. As a MacOS user it is not possible via the GUI at least, I haven't checked terminal/command line.

Perhaps you did not see the folloowing from the website you pointed me at

MacOS Note

The portable installation is not officially supported on Apple's Mac operating systems for several reasons. One of them is related to the package signature (we sign the Arduino IDE package): adding any content - like additional cores, libs and sketches - to the package will break the signature. A consequence of that is the reaction of the Gatekeeper that could even stop the app from starting. This is related to the OS and not to our IDE. Anyway, if you want to experiment you can checkthis forum threadand try by yourself the solutions developed by the community.

Here is the final comment on this issue.

Thefinal word from the Arduino team6is that portable mode on macOS is not officially supported. The instructions have been updated to specifically state this, with a link to westfw's excellent directions.

Although it's unfortunate there is no perfect support for portable mode on macOS, this discussion has resulted in an improvement in the documentation so I'm happy.

I see no benefit to me to do this and see no benefit to a normal user who is doing normal work. If one of our forum users is also an Arduino developer then they probably already know how to do this.

One exception is that if you are encountering errors during beta testing then this might be a simpler approach but beta is done for 2.x so let's close this until they start beta testing 3.x

EDIT I was involved in beta testing 2.x and when I encountered an issue that I couldn't tolerate, I made a copy of my sketchbook folder and simply deleted the entire Arduino folder and re-installed the last working version followed by putting the sketchbook folder back. The step re deleting the entire Arduino folder can not be done by a normal user but I suspect the IDE installer takes care of that in any case.

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
ReplyQuote
(@davee)
Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1547
 

Hi Ron.

Re the root cause of many problems labeled by newbies as IDE or library are they didn't RTFM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have no doubt on the truth of this ... I have always been a bit of a manual reader ... and I get very frustrated to get a new Android phone that gives me the guarantee printed in more languages than countries represented at the UN, but almost nothing about how to use the thing ... and even the website only manages a few hints and tips .... 😲 

But in spite of this, over the years I have spent hours looking for the answer to a problem which was described in the manual, but I overlooked a detail ... and that has included swapping a full stop for a comma. Humans are designed to look for patterns etc. ... something computers are only just beginning to catch up with .... but once a person has misread or misunderstood something, it is incredibly hard to spot or relearn the correct one. Hence, I sympathise with both you ... and the people who have attempted to read the manual, but overlooked a vital point.

Of course there are others who seem  to think that even a superficial glance at a manual is beneath them ... they do not have my sympathy!!!!

-------

WHY take a chance of messing up when the IDE will do it for you.?

No reason ... I am naturally 'lazy' and will go with the simple choice when it achieves my aim. ... But the access and problems I am considering are those that either the IDE or the latest support (e.g. library addition for a specifc sensor) does not achieve my requiremnets using a simple automatic, or point and click solution, for whatever reason ...

The reason could be because a particular update has not been produced in the correct form for the IDE to automatically pick it up.

     ... which so far has happened to me once with Arduino, but quite a few times with Ubuntu whose 'Official' updates for programs can be a year or more behind the programme authors' releases.

And the Ubuntu packaged form of the browser Firefox regularly crashed my PC ... the Firefox 'direct' version seems fine! (Google search made it clear I was not alone with this problem and provided the solution.)

Or, in the case of Arduino, it could be because I am looking for some information or flexibility that is only available by looking elsewhere, typically the source code of otherwise pre-compiled libraries.

------------

So improving the experience of using a tool I am generally in favour of .... but not at the expense of making it less usuable.

Best wishes, Dave

 


   
Ron reacted
ReplyQuote
(@davee)
Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1547
 

Hi Ron @zander,

Thanks for the reply starting "NO, can't have 2 versions other than IDE1 and IDE2. I .."

----------

To be pedantic, it looked like you could have a lot of different versions e.g. 1.6.5, 1.6.6, etc but maybe not two copies of 1.6.6 ... although I may be misinterpreting the slide.

I also saw commands on the drop down menu like "Duplicate", but I am guessing the "gatekeeper" might take a dim view of any "Duplicated" installations .. assuming it even got that far.

-------------

Fair enough, if that is the way it works, I am not going to change it .. but then I have never bought a MAC, so I know my feelings will not worry anyone at Apple  🙄  I can understand why some traditional corporate IT departments take a liking to it but as you have no doubt figured out, it is not my style.

 

----------

You were right, sorry I had missed some of your reference ... that particular forum thread is a bit chaotic and dates back to 1.8.

What I do not recall spotting before is the comment that the Apple packages need to be 'signed'. That certainly does not surprise me, but I didn't know it till now.

Personally, I would be concerned this could be very limiting in a research orientated environment ... I realise such approaches can help to protect against malicious attacks ... as well as incompetence ... but they can also be stifling. A very tricky balance, to which I do not think there is a single correct answer.

----------------------

Not sure where that leaves us .. apart from it being past the end of my day.

I'll wish you a good day, thanking you for the information and support. Best wishes,Dave


   
ReplyQuote
Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@davee I could be wrong but I don't really think so. The idea of 1.6.5 and 1.6.6 does not work I think, they are all named arduino.app for Ver 1.x.x or for 2.x.x 'arduino IDE.app' I have included some screen prints that might help.

Screenshot 2022 11 02 at 18.31.01
Screenshot 2022 11 02 at 18.31.21
Screenshot 2022 11 02 at 18.31.31

 

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
ReplyQuote
(@davee)
Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1547
 

Hi Ron @zander,

image

Fair enough ... perhaps  someone likes filling their drive with inaccessible downloads ... or maybe it is just fooling me ... I am not going to fret about it!

Best wishes, Dave


   
ReplyQuote
Ron
 Ron
(@zander)
Father of a miniature Wookie
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 6530
 

@davee I don't know why anyone other than someone on the arduino team would keep that many versions. I usually keep the current and one or two back unless it has a problem then it gets deleted so I am down to one or two until the next version. I don't do that for space reasons, my SSD still has 590GB free space, I just don't see any need for more.

First computer 1959. Retired from my own computer company 2004.
Hardware - Expert in 1401, and 360, fairly knowledge in PC plus numerous MPU's and MCU's
Major Languages - Machine language, 360 Macro Assembler, Intel Assembler, PL/I and PL1, Pascal, Basic, C plus numerous job control and scripting languages.
Sure you can learn to be a programmer, it will take the same amount of time for me to learn to be a Doctor.


   
DaveE reacted
ReplyQuote
Will
 Will
(@will)
Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 2502
 

@zander 

I agree, the only reason I can see to keep multiple versions is for troubleshooting and only somebody getting paid for the product would bother doing that (and maybe not even then).

Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.


   
DaveE and Ron reacted
ReplyQuote
frogandtoad
(@frogandtoad)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1458
Topic starter  
Posted by: @davee

Hi @frogandtoad,

  Thanks for the reply.

  I confess I didn't know Arduino IDE 2.0 had a portable version ... I have 1.8 in 'portable' version, albeit still on the main drive, and I recall having a quick look for a portable version when it was still in one of the many beta stages, only to discover a few forum messages concluding that it didn't exist at that time. And I certainly didn't see any mention in the 'offical' 2.0 installation instructions, although I didn't explicitly look for them.

If you have any words of experience and wisdom you would like to share, I guess they might be appreciated by others.

For example, being able to install a 'fresh and insulated' IDE could be a way of helping others who end up with a 'broken' install due to library mismatches, and so on, preferably without affecting their existing installation.

Best wishes and take care my friend, Dave

Hi Dave, indeed there is a portable version available, and always has been!

Please see the following screen shot:

Arduino Download Options

Download the .zip for windows, and the AppImage for Linux (same for the nightly builds)

I have alerted @zander to this before, so not sure what to make of his recent responses:

Arduino/ide-2-0-0-rc6

Cheers


   
ReplyQuote
frogandtoad
(@frogandtoad)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1458
Topic starter  

@zander

Posted by: @zander

@davee Thanks Dave. I wanted to clarify your 'lazy shorthand' because as you know I do get involved in a few library issues. Also, I had a past with 'portable' and now see it still means the same thing. I hope one of us finds it soon, maybe @frogandtoad can give us a pointer.

Hi Ron, I have spoken with you about this in the past - Please see my reply to @davee.

Cheers


   
ReplyQuote
frogandtoad
(@frogandtoad)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1458
Topic starter  

@davee

Posted by: @davee

Hi Ron @zander,

   Thanks for the reply.

       Unfortunately, I don't think there is a 'portable' V2.0x 

                    ... but I am hoping I am wrong and  @frogandtoad will explain all ..

                             ... or maybe it will emerge as V2.0x settles down

  I also think there would have to be (at least) three versions to cover everyone ... Apple, Linux and  Windows  ... I know there are bridges like Wine, and Windows is 'incorporating' Linux, but I am doubtful that they are strong enough ..  again maybe @frogand toad or someone else has a better answer.

I can foresee some other issues in the future, but they can wait until these concerns are dealt with.

Best wishes, Dave

Indeed, there is!

Please see my previous reply, for the different available versions.

Cheers


   
ReplyQuote
frogandtoad
(@frogandtoad)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1458
Topic starter  

@zander

Posted by: @zander

@davee Keep in mind, the root cause of many problems labeled by newbies as IDE or library are they didn't RTFM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's only a question of time before they encounter an old unmaintained project with manual (before the IDE took it on) library install directions. Those instructions are mostly correct and can work but WHY take a chance of messing up when the IDE will do it for you.

I have spent 10's of thousands of hours doing help desk and support work over my 60+ year career and I can say with highest confidence that a brief reading of a manual would have made me unneeded in over 90% of the cases.

Good point!  It's amasing that even experienced programmers who ask newbies to to provide their code, defy to do so themselves when asking for help, as noticed recently, and go on to blame others for their failure to provide the necessary information requested of them.


   
ReplyQuote
frogandtoad
(@frogandtoad)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1458
Topic starter  

@zander

Posted by: @zander

@davee I don't know why anyone other than someone on the arduino team would keep that many versions. I usually keep the current and one or two back unless it has a problem then it gets deleted so I am down to one or two until the next version. I don't do that for space reasons, my SSD still has 590GB free space, I just don't see any need for more.

Some people don't want to break their libraries, so they tie git into their workflow, thus they also need multiple versions for regression testing etc... as to resolve any issues.

Probably not for your average user, but some may take their work more seriously than others, and there is nothing wrong with that 😉

Cheers


   
DaveE reacted
ReplyQuote
Page 4 / 5