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									Stepper motor voltage - Motors &amp; Control				            </title>
            <link>https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/</link>
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                        <title>RE: Stepper motor voltage</title>
                        <link>https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/3/#post-48362</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 12 Jul 2024 10:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@zander Thanks for stepping in. Those are virtually identical to the gates I have.]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[@zander Thanks for stepping in. Those are virtually identical to the gates I have.]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/">Motors &amp; Control</category>                        <dc:creator>AndyD</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/3/#post-48362</guid>
                    </item>
				                    <item>
                        <title>RE: Stepper motor voltage</title>
                        <link>https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/3/#post-48361</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 12 Jul 2024 10:27:21 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[I was aware of this library but hadn&#039;t explored further. I&#039;ll take a look and try it out.

That short definition of voltage and current was surprising useful. I do not have an electronics ...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p>This last problem can be handled by using AccelStepper (Arduino Library) to accelerate instead of simply trying to drive it instantly to some set speed.  If this is your problem, you might find that if you try different speeds, you'll reach a threshold that starts skipping steps.  Also as @davee suggested, using micro stepping also helps.  </p>
<p></p>
<p>I was aware of this library but hadn't explored further. I'll take a look and try it out.</p>
<p></p>
<p><span>By definition, voltage is the </span><em>potential</em><span> to supply current.  Higher voltage has the </span><em>ability</em><span> to supply more current, faster... especially in a PWM controlled way which is what the A4988 is doing.</span></p>
<p></p>
<p>That short definition of voltage and current was surprising useful. I do not have an electronics background and it hit the spot with improving my very basic understanding. &#x1f44d;</p>
<p> </p>
<p></p>
<p><span><strong>Stationary Noise</strong></span></p>
<p>Yes, the full current setting is constantly being applied even with the motor stopped.  In fact from my tests, I found that the motor will be drawing more current when stopped than when at full speed (even multi-thousand rpms).  In your project, you should look into controlling the<span> </span><em>Enable </em>pin and turning off the motor when not opening/closing a gate.  If you run it anywhere near max A4988 current, you will find it gets very hot besides wasting a lot of electricity.</p>
<p></p>
<p>&#x1f644;&#x1f60a; Such an obvious thing to do and yet didn't occur to me. Thanks for the suggestion, I will definitely implement it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The guillotine design gates I have are the same as those shown in the reply from @zander.</p>
<p> </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/">Motors &amp; Control</category>                        <dc:creator>AndyD</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/3/#post-48361</guid>
                    </item>
				                    <item>
                        <title>RE: Stepper motor voltage</title>
                        <link>https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/3/#post-48359</link>
                        <pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2024 16:58:35 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@zander I think I will look into this a little further with my engineer friend. This area was his living for many years, so I’m sure he will have an opinion. But I’ll shelve it for now so as...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p>@byron @andydowns I have seen some mentions of inside the pipe. Some are straight down the middle, some drill holes and weave the wire in and out. As a former electrician, I can see no benefit to not just winding around the outside. Down the middle will do almost no good, and the in and out weave is just too much work for no apparent benefit. I will add however, apply some tape to make sure the wire or much better braid like solder wick or more cost effective common braided cables that you remove the insulation from and partially unwind so it can be flattened. I would tape it maybe every 6". As far as winding around the pipe, a 12" pitch 'feels' about right. If at the end of a run you have flexible plastic hose, the flex part is often steel so make sure the pipe ground wire connects to that and then to ground. SOME plastic flex pipe use plastic for the helix, do NOT use that!!!!! I see you have some metal flex hose in some cases, that is excellent, just connect the plastic pipe ground braid to it and then to ground. Try to avoid putting screws through either the plastic or metal or flex as they collect debris, use cable clamps instead.</p>
<p>I never did this as I went with an Oneida system and used the heavy gauge large radius pipe after I saw what happened to my brothers shop. Remember things like fine saw dust, flour, other fines can build up static charges from rubbing up against other fine particles. At some point it will discharge, 99%+ with no damage BUT eventually you may experience the 1% so give the excess charge an easy path to ground.</p>
<p></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span>@zander I think I will look into this a little further with my engineer friend. This area was his living for many years, so I’m sure he will have an opinion. But I’ll shelve it for now so as not to detract for the current project.</span></p>
<p> </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/">Motors &amp; Control</category>                        <dc:creator>AndyD</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/3/#post-48359</guid>
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                        <title>RE: Stepper motor voltage</title>
                        <link>https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/3/#post-48357</link>
                        <pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2024 14:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@inq If I may speak for Andy @andydowns, a guillotine gate is one where the metal closure goes completely through the housing rather than trying to make a snug fit. The advantage of that is ...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@inq If I may speak for Andy @andydowns, a guillotine gate is one where the metal closure goes completely through the housing rather than trying to make a snug fit. The advantage of that is it cleans out minor debris that would normally build up with a conventional gate and lead to leakage. He already has the metal guillotine gates. I attached some pictures that show that type.</p>
9269
9270
<p> </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/">Motors &amp; Control</category>                        <dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/3/#post-48357</guid>
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                        <title>RE: Stepper motor voltage</title>
                        <link>https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/3/#post-48356</link>
                        <pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2024 12:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Hi @andydowns,
Yes, an impressive project and perfect for a dronebotworkshop project!

Skipping Steps
I failed to fully qualify my statement.  I&#039;m a little out practice of discussing tec...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi <a title="AndyDowns" href="https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/participant/andydowns/">@andydowns</a>,</p>
<p>Yes, an impressive project and perfect for a <em>dronebotworkshop</em> project!</p>
<p>Anyway... I do know that steppers skip steps, so your limit switches are redundant.</p>
<p><span style="text-decoration: underline"><strong>Skipping Steps</strong></span></p>
<p>I failed to fully qualify my statement.  I'm a little out practice of discussing technical aspects since my leaving the forum.  @davee comments are more expletive.  Stepper motors are completely reliable (as you surmised with hard disks and 3D printers).  They miss steps under one mechanical condition - being asked to supply more torque than the driver's current setting can provide.  As @davee mentioned this happens in several situations in your design.</p>
<ol>
<li>can't overcome friction of the sliding mechanism (bad)</li>
<li>has reached the stop and still has steps commanded (good)</li>
<li>trying to drive it too fast and the inertia of the design is requiring too much torque trying to accelerate it  (bad)</li>
</ol>
<p> </p>
<p>This last problem can be handled by using AccelStepper (Arduino Library) to accelerate instead of simply trying to drive it instantly to some set speed.  If this is your problem, you might find that if you try different speeds, you'll reach a threshold that starts skipping steps.  Also as @davee suggested, using micro stepping also helps.  </p>
<p><span style="text-decoration: underline"><strong>Voltage</strong></span></p>
<p>By definition, voltage is the <em>potential</em> to supply current.  Higher voltage has the <em>ability</em> to supply more current, faster... especially in a PWM controlled way which is what the A4988 is doing.  @davee can explain it far better in EE terms, but in practical terms using the A4988 or DRV8825, I've always seen better performance at higher voltage.  The A4988 can utilize up to 35 volts.  The DRV8825 up to 45V.  I don't really understand why they post voltage on steppers since it is entirely controlled by the stepper driver and current limit is the only significant value on the stepper motor.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Something else I noticed yesterday was wining coming from the motor when powered up but not moving. I varied the current limiter on the bench power supply and it did change the frequency of the hum. <img class="emoji" role="img" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/svg/1f914.svg" alt="&#x1f914;" /></p>
<p></p>
<p><span style="text-decoration: underline"><strong>Stationary Noise</strong></span></p>
<p>Yes, the full current setting is constantly being applied even with the motor stopped.  In fact from my tests, I found that the motor will be drawing more current when stopped than when at full speed (even multi-thousand rpms).  In your project, you should look into controlling the <em>Enable </em>pin and turning off the motor when not opening/closing a gate.  If you run it anywhere near max A4988 current, you will find it gets very hot besides wasting a lot of electricity.</p>
<p><span style="text-decoration: underline"><strong>Suggestion</strong></span></p>
<p>I didn't see any design, but if you really meant a guillotine like design, you have to convert rotational to linear movement... requiring some mechanism.  A crank, connecting rod is cumbersome.  A geared (rack and pinion) can present a contamination problem.  Since you mentioned having a 3D printer, making a design using curves shouldn't be a problem.  Something like a direct drive like this is simple mechanically.  Just a thought.</p>
9268
<p> </p>
<p> </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/">Motors &amp; Control</category>                        <dc:creator>Inq</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/3/#post-48356</guid>
                    </item>
				                    <item>
                        <title>RE: Stepper motor voltage</title>
                        <link>https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/2/#post-48354</link>
                        <pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2024 11:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@byron @andydowns I have seen some mentions of inside the pipe. Some are straight down the middle, some drill holes and weave the wire in and out. As a former electrician, I can see no benef...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@byron @andydowns I have seen some mentions of inside the pipe. Some are straight down the middle, some drill holes and weave the wire in and out. As a former electrician, I can see no benefit to not just winding around the outside. Down the middle will do almost no good, and the in and out weave is just too much work for no apparent benefit. I will add however, apply some tape to make sure the wire or much better braid like solder wick or more cost effective common braided cables that you remove the insulation from and partially unwind so it can be flattened. I would tape it maybe every 6". As far as winding around the pipe, a 12" pitch 'feels' about right. If at the end of a run you have flexible plastic hose, the flex part is often steel so make sure the pipe ground wire connects to that and then to ground. SOME plastic flex pipe use plastic for the helix, do NOT use that!!!!! I see you have some metal flex hose in some cases, that is excellent, just connect the plastic pipe ground braid to it and then to ground. Try to avoid putting screws through either the plastic or metal or flex as they collect debris, use cable clamps instead.</p>
<p>I never did this as I went with an Oneida system and used the heavy gauge large radius pipe after I saw what happened to my brothers shop. Remember things like fine saw dust, flour, other fines can build up static charges from rubbing up against other fine particles. At some point it will discharge, 99%+ with no damage BUT eventually you may experience the 1% so give the excess charge an easy path to ground.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/">Motors &amp; Control</category>                        <dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/2/#post-48354</guid>
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                        <title>RE: Stepper motor voltage</title>
                        <link>https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/2/#post-48353</link>
                        <pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2024 10:27:01 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@byron I&#039;ve watched these exact same videos when I was trying to work this out myself. &#x1f601;
The company I used to work for was owned by a company that designed and developed intrinsica...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@byron I've watched these exact same videos when I was trying to work this out myself. &#x1f601;</p>
<p>The company I used to work for was owned by a company that designed and developed intrinsically safe products. I'm still in contact with one of the engineers, also retired, and will sound him out about this.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/">Motors &amp; Control</category>                        <dc:creator>AndyD</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/2/#post-48353</guid>
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                        <title>RE: Stepper motor voltage</title>
                        <link>https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/2/#post-48352</link>
                        <pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2024 10:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@davee Yes, this has been troubling me too. I thought of the exact same two examples you gave, which made me think I am missing something as they should be reliable. I have never heard my 3D...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@davee Yes, this has been troubling me too. I thought of the exact same two examples you gave, which made me think I am missing something as they should be reliable. I have never heard my 3D printer or PC drive of any sort miss a beat.</p>
<p>Thanks for your suggestions, I will keep returning to this until all possible avenues have been exhausted. I will, however stay with the current scheme to keep the project moving along. </p>
<p>I did try a few experiments with current and step frequency when I first tried the motors, but all gave inconclusive results. I think I will try out your suggestions that I can, presently, and then repeat the results and publish them for public perusal.</p>
<p>I haven't tried micro stepping as yet, but intend doing so at some point. If this might give an indication of problem area, I'll try it sooner than later.</p>
<p>Something else I noticed yesterday was wining coming from the motor when powered up but not moving. I varied the current limiter on the bench power supply and it did change the frequency of the hum. &#x1f914;</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/">Motors &amp; Control</category>                        <dc:creator>AndyD</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/2/#post-48352</guid>
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				                    <item>
                        <title>RE: Stepper motor voltage</title>
                        <link>https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/2/#post-48349</link>
                        <pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2024 00:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Ha, read this in a final peruse around just before my bed time, which got me thinking where I got the inside the pipe thought from.  Just what I don&#039;t need as now I may be going to dream of ...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p>@andydowns If the plastic pipe is PVC then no problems, PVC is anti-static and has a very high resistance to current flow. For the flex plastic hose, ground the wound spring part of the hose and you are good to go.</p>
<p>If the pipe is NOT PVC then wrap the pipe in braided copper. Putting it inside leads to jams and does a poor job of grounding.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Ha, read this in a final peruse around just before my bed time, which got me thinking where I got the inside the pipe thought from.  Just what I don't need as now I may be going to dream of blasted pipe explosions.  Anyway this is from a quote from a woodworking forum with some links should anyone be daft enough to want to wade through them.   Whether the opinion has any merits I don't venture an opinion as I'm not going to be doing any grounding in my shop.</p>
<p>So I quote:</p>
<p><span>"An Electrician did a video about installing an extraction system and he specifically said not to put the wire on the outside as it won't do anything (has to go inside)."</span><br /><br /><a class="link link--external" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=812Ez9OT0As" target="_blank" rel="nofollow ugc noopener" data-proxy-href="/proxy.php?link=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D812Ez9OT0As&amp;hash=9a4381d9e2005ac2d4bdf20dcbf0b897">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=812Ez9OT0As</a><br /><a class="link link--external" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oFCOlYXx5c" target="_blank" rel="nofollow ugc noopener" data-proxy-href="/proxy.php?link=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D9oFCOlYXx5c&amp;hash=1129a5e19a300cc78f5c28e2c574fa87">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oFCOlYXx5c</a></p>
<p>Ok end quote, and bloody heck is that the time &#x1f62e; </p>
<p> </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/">Motors &amp; Control</category>                        <dc:creator>byron</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/2/#post-48349</guid>
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                        <title>RE: Stepper motor voltage</title>
                        <link>https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/2/#post-48348</link>
                        <pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2024 23:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@andydowns If the plastic pipe is PVC then no problems, PVC is anti-static and has a very high resistance to current flow. For the flex plastic hose, ground the wound spring part of the hose...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@andydowns If the plastic pipe is PVC then no problems, PVC is anti-static and has a very high resistance to current flow. For the flex plastic hose, ground the wound spring part of the hose and you are good to go.</p>
<p>If the pipe is NOT PVC then wrap the pipe in braided copper. Putting it inside leads to jams and does a poor job of grounding.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/">Motors &amp; Control</category>                        <dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://forum.dronebotworkshop.com/motors/stepper-motor-voltage/paged/2/#post-48348</guid>
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