Questions about, in short lots of things

WOW. Good luck.

Posted by: @lucky321

I think everyone is familiar with all the simulators like DCS real sticks, controls etc.

I can't speak for everyone here, but most of us are retired and don't play video games.  I had to Google DCS real sticks.

Posted by: @lucky321

     1. Is nRF right for that thing and here I mean sending pockets of date? Main thing latency. In normal RC control ther are using Frequency Hopping which is more rebust I think?

I think some answers fall under... it depends...

• Considering where you are AND your question about frequency hopping.  Are you expecting your project to be in a war zone and need it to be hardened against wireless attack?  Not going to happen!
• I'm not familiar with nRF and just looked it up.  Someone may need to correct me, but I don't see the advantage of the combination you specified.  You might want to consider using two ESP32's:
  • Prices here in the US.  I'm sure yours will be different, but I'm guessing the relative price will be about the same. 
    • (3) ESP32's for $19 Includes WiFi and BlueTooth "https://www.amazon.com/ESP-WROOM-32-Development-Microcontroller-Integrated-Compatible/dp/B08D5ZD528"
    • (1) Arduino Due $34 + (1) Arduino Nano $18 + (4) NRF24L01+ $8 = $60
  • CPU Speed - ESP32 240 MHz (Some are dual core), Arduino 84 MHz
  • Ram - ESP32:  520 KB, Arduino:  96 KB
  • Rom - ESP32:  448 KB, Arduino n/a
  • Flash Memory - ESP32:  4 MB, Arduino 512 KB
  • Sounds like the DUE has more pins, but do you really need 54 pins?
• With the ESP32's BlueTooth you could probably hook up to the Joy Stick wirelessly and talk to the UAV via the WiFi and simplify you ground station.
• What kind of range are you expecting.  nRF says its only good for about a 100 meters.  WiFi is good for at least that.  With extra antenna's I'm sure they both get better range.  I've read articles using the ESP8266 out to multiple kilometers under ideal conditions.  Considering they're at the same frequency 2.4 GHz, I imagine under the same conditions, they'll both be about the same.
• Throughput, latency - Here is a video using the cheaper ESP2866 running at only 80 MHz where I'm getting near 200kB/second of data coming from the robot.  Note where the mouse is versus the red dot on the control panel. 
  • The mouse is where the computer is telling the robot what speeds to run.
  • The red dot is the speed setting that the robot replied.
  • You'll see almost no lag on the UI - But the latency you see includes:
    • the laptop sending the TCP data
    • the robot receiving the data
    • setting the motor speeds
    • sending the results
    • laptop receiving the TCP results
    • and lastly... Chrome browser painting the red dot!
• If you did a simple, single TCP connection with the ESP32 running at the full 240 MHz, you would get better throughput and lower latency than above video!

Whatever you decide, I'm sure people here will be glad to give advice, especially if you keep a running thread on your progress.  We all like to see pictures and video's of successes and not so successes.  

VBR,

Inq

• Is your UAV electric powered or will it have a fuel engine also?
• ESP32 are lighter, smaller and use less power than a Due.  All very important in any UAV.
• How big of a UAV are you talking about?
• Any pictures, drawing, schematics, diagram, specifications, etc?

Considering my careers (carbon composite design/analysis, FEA, Fluid Dynamics, and software engineering) I'm very interested in your progress and am rooting four you!  Good luck.

VBR,

Inq

Posted by: @inq

Posted by: @lucky321

I think everyone is familiar with all the simulators like DCS real sticks, controls etc.

I can't speak for everyone here, but most of us are retired and don't play video games.  I had to Google DCS real sticks.

I have in mind just like bigger control station but underastand hah

I think some answers fall under... it depends...

• Considering where you are AND your question about frequency hopping.  Are you expecting your project to be in a war zone and need it to be hardened against wireless attack?  Not going to happen!
• I'm not familiar with nRF and just looked it up.  Someone may need to correct me, but I don't see the advantage of the combination you specified.  You might want to consider using two ESP32's:
  • Prices here in the US.  I'm sure yours will be different, but I'm guessing the relative price will be about the same. 
    • (3) ESP32's for $19 Includes WiFi and BlueTooth "https://www.amazon.com/ESP-WROOM-32-Development-Microcontroller-Integrated-Compatible/dp/B08D5ZD528"
    • (1) Arduino Due $34 + (1) Arduino Nano $18 + (4) NRF24L01+ $8 = $60
  • CPU Speed - ESP32 240 MHz (Some are dual core), Arduino 84 MHz
  • Ram - ESP32:  520 KB, Arduino:  96 KB
  • Rom - ESP32:  448 KB, Arduino n/a
  • Flash Memory - ESP32:  4 MB, Arduino 512 KB
  • Sounds like the DUE has more pins, but do you really need 54 pins?

Frequency hopping for me in this case, isn't about countermasure against jamming and etc. I wanted to do something like in normal aparature where every single command (value) is send on diffrent channel

I unfotunetly am not familliar with esp, and my time frame for this isn't supper big 1 year.

Price isn't problem for now.

I want to use arduino DUE becouse it is faster than rest of arduinos. For my headtracker which I mentioned in first paragraf, I used nanos MPU 6050 and everything worked great, there was some place for optimalisation but worked. And that was my bachelor degree like just fpv camera, arduinos nRFs, MPU and servos. Now I want to made everything work with controls.

If you imagine pilot right normally siting in cocpit right? Well now he is on the groud, but still control plane with familiar stick, rudder, throttle and can look around like he was just up in the air.

•  
• With the ESP32's BlueTooth you could probably hook up to the Joy Stick wirelessly and talk to the UAV via the WiFi and simplify you ground station.

Like I said higher I'm not familiar with ESP but underastand you, Plug all devices to computer and than send via USB to ESP and than to next ESP to control drone.

• What kind of range are you expecting.  nRF says its only good for about a 100 meters.  WiFi is good for at least that.  With extra antenna's I'm sure they both get better range.  I've read articles using the ESP8266 out to multiple kilometers under ideal conditions.  Considering they're at the same frequency 2.4 GHz, I imagine under the same conditions, they'll both be about the same.

• Well the bigger range the better but for now this is proof of concept we can say, nRF24l01+ PA LNA have range up to 1000m for now this is enough. But I am open to try something else

• Throughput, latency - Here is a video using the cheaper ESP2866 running at only 80 MHz where I'm getting near 200kB/second of data coming from the robot.  Note where the mouse is versus the red dot on the control panel. 
  • The mouse is where the computer is telling the robot what speeds to run.
  • The red dot is the speed setting that the robot replied.
  • You'll see almost no lag on the UI - But the latency you see includes:
    • the laptop sending the TCP data
    • the robot receiving the data
    • setting the motor speeds
    • sending the results
    • laptop receiving the TCP results
    • and lastly... Chrome browser painting the red dot!
• If you did a simple, single TCP connection with the ESP32 running at the full 240 MHz, you would get better throughput and lower latency than above video!

Looks great, something like that, what is range for this project? 

Whatever you decide, I'm sure people here will be glad to give advice, especially if you keep a running thread on your progress.  We all like to see pictures and video's of successes and not so successes.  

VBR,

Inq

 

Thanks, this is project for my master degree so we will see how it works out.

I'm pretty sure I do it in the way I described but if there will be any problems i shall ask for help

Other thing is that but not for now just like futher future use GSM to control and receive video from UAV but this is something for diffrent time.

Posted by: @inq

 

• Is your UAV electric powered or will it have a fuel engine also?
• ESP32 are lighter, smaller and use less power than a Due.  All very important in any UAV.
• How big of a UAV are you talking about?
• Any pictures, drawing, schematics, diagram, specifications, etc?

 

Electric

Mass isn't problem probably we will design own UAV for 3D print

For now this is concept but I underastand I am I don't know even haha bachelor or engineer (I cant tell diffrance in Polish language this is like the same thing) Mechanics in field Aviation and Aeronautics so some knowlege is in head (not much but ther are bigger plans in my head)

Spanwise 1 meter I think

For now this is like everything in my head. And this is my head tracker with fpv (sorry for mess)

One more thing I found LoRa transceivers and I will read about it but if someone have nice pill information it will be appreciated.

My plan for now is to create design based on arduino NANO and nRF, I will have those in hand in a week or so. Than program entire thing, I use potetiometers to represent things I want to send and check if everything works like latency, program speed etc. etc. Than I start changing things like diffrent radio and arduino. Looking forward to use LoRa in future, will see. I will keep you updated. Any suggestions that will not required to learn new things from zero (day have only 24h hah) will be nice

Posted by: @lucky321

I unfotunetly am not familliar with esp, and my time frame for this isn't supper big 1 year.

Price isn't problem for now.

I want to use arduino DUE becouse it is faster than rest of arduinos. For my headtracker which I mentioned in first paragraf, I used nanos MPU 6050 and everything worked great, there was some place for optimalisation but worked.  And that was my bachelor degree like just fpv camera, arduinos nRFs, MPU and servos. Now I want to made everything work with controls. 

Oh! I understand... You have years already invested in something already... No doubt, go with that!

Just for future reference... switching to using an ESP8266 or ESP32 does not involve any real changes.  It still uses the Arduino IDE, the same Sketch language, almost all libraries are compatible and libraries are written in C/C++.  Having all the communications built-in, just makes things easier on that side.  So if you find that the Due/Nano are not fast enough or have enough memory for your project, it is likely, you can just replace the hardware without having to change much in your software.  

Posted by: @lucky321

Like I said higher I'm not familiar with ESP but underastand you, Plug all devices to computer and than send via USB to ESP and than to next ESP to control drone.

Actually, I know many of the available gamer joysticks use Bluetooth wirelessly.  The ESP32 also has Bluetooth.  It might be easier to Bluetooth the flight controls to the ESP32 (instead of USB or connecting to digital pins) and then WiFi connect to the UAV.  But again... go with what you know especially if you have a deadline!

Posted by: @lucky321

• Well the bigger range the better but for now this is proof of concept we can say, nRF24l01+ PA LNA have range up to 1000m for now this is enough.

...

Looks great, something like that, what is range for this project?

Oh!  As I mentioned, I have not used the nRF and my quick Google said 100 m.  Although, I have read ESP8266 can go kilometers with external antennas, I've never used them over about 100 meter. 

My project is an indoor only project, so I've never really checked it.  Walls are a bigger issue.  But I know  throughput gets worse with WiFi with distance.  Don't know how bad nRF is affected by range.

Posted by: @lucky321

My plan for now is to create design based on arduino NANO and nRF, I will have those in hand in a week or so. Than program entire thing, I use potetiometers to represent things I want to send and check if everything works like latency, program speed etc. etc. Than I start changing things like diffrent radio and arduino. Looking forward to use LoRa in future, will see. I will keep you updated. Any suggestions that will not required to learn new things from zero (day have only 24h hah) will be nice

Sounds great!  I'm looking forward to see how it goes.

VBR,

Inq

Posted by: @lucky321

For now this is like everything in my head. And this is my head tracker with fpv (sorry for mess)

One more thing I found LoRa transceivers and I will read about it but if someone have nice pill information it will be appreciated.

That looks great!   

And you and I have way two different ideas of what a mess is.  You're a mere amateur. 🤣 

Hi &lucky321 (and &inq),

  Just a random thought or two ... apologies if I am repeating the obvious or accidentally introducing any errors.

  When considering range, remember it depends on lots of factors, e.g.:

• Yes, people have pushed WiFi to a few kilometres in places that there is a clear path, but only with highly directional aerials that must be carefully aligned. Obviously, because the wavelength is short, directional (high gain) aerials can be fairly small, but if you need to maintain contact with a moving object, then it must be able to reliably track it ... if it loses contact, it may take some time to find it. I haven't looked at the nRF products, but as it appears to be 2.4 GHz, the physics is going to be the same as for the 2.4G WiFi.
• The wider the bandwidth required, the stronger the received signal needs to be, and the shorter the effective range (for a given transmitter/receiver etc.) is. Hence, WiFi has 'best effort' built in to the system, so that it provides a higher bandwidth when the signal is stronger, but tries to maintain at least some connectivity when the signal is weak.
• Range indoors is totally unpredictable ... assuming there will be walls, etc., between the base station and the mobile, then these will attenuate the signal. The amount of attenuation varies widely, depending upon the construction methods and materials of the wall. In some cases, a single wall can effectively block the entire signal. I suggest you do some experiments with a transmitter and receiver, manually 'walking' one around the building and continually monitoring the connection. This way, you can get some idea as to whether your 'mobile' will be able to remain in contact with its base station using your chosen RF link mechanism.
• Consider what your mobile will do when contact with the base station is lost. It will need a strategy.

Good luck ... I am sure there are others on the forum who will be interested to know how you get on. Best wishes, Dave

@davee Thanks for reply Yes I know how propagation works and was thinking about tracking antena but I don't have time for this. I will be flying this in open terrain, so there is no prblem with obstacles. Signal lost for now will be equal to crash, I know, but I don't want to fly to far. Another thing is that it will be 3D printed so yea crashes aren't that bad. NRF is go to, for now.

If I want to do it right, I think I should check on which data rate I have enough latency to be able to control confortable my plane. Next check for radios that have biggest range for that data rate.

I am right?

So we will see what comes out of it. One thing is sure it is going to work better or worse. I have bigger plans with that idea in future but now there is no time. I have to learn to ATPL exams hahaha

@lucky321 IIRC, LORA has much better range than NRF. 

@zander Yea I know, but what about data rate, is transfer fast enough for that application? I was looking around and there are many LoRa transceivers and I dont have experience with them. Can you recommend one? Like which frequency is best for that stability and sure thing things I didn't expect. Thanks for reply

@lucky321 Almost all I know about them is from the Swiss Guy, check his YT chan, he has several videos.

@lucky321 FYI @davee @Inq WHOA, this is for your masters degree? Isn't that supposed to be 'original' work, or were you planning on sharing the degree with whoever 'helps' you. Sorry, but I have a strict policy about not helping people do homework or attain degrees off the backs of others who worked hard to gain the original knowledge.

Hi Ron @zander @lucky123 &inq,

  I assume (after Googling), ATPL =  Airline Transport Pilot Licence ... Is that correct Lucky?

 However, Lucky, I also note you say " this is project for my master degree so we will see how it works out"

Which as Ron says, is much more troubling.

The difficulty in the latter case is knowing the type of support.

In some cases, it is necessary to buy and make equipment, etc., which is not the subject of the research itself, but is needed for that research. 

But in other cases it is the research itself.

Can you please clarify Lucky?

Best wishes all, Dave