CAD and the Jeston Nano

Posted by: @robo-pi

So for some reason these extension cables aren't working.   That's a bummer!   I was going to use these to connect my SD Card Boot Hub up to the nano.    Now I'm back to square one  trying to figure out how to extend the  Jetson Nano  SD card  socket  so I can use my newly designed SD Card Boot Hub.

This is completely theoretical, but is it possible that the cable is to long for the nano to receive data from? Sort of like the I2C with DB1? Maybe  the transfer speed is not enough for the nano? Again, this is completely theoretical, and I did not research it, so please forgive me if this idea doesn't make any sense ? 

@egers

You may very well be right.  I trusted the SD card cable to be able to do what it was sold to do.  I wouldn't think they would make them longer than an SD card should be able to reach.   I also haven't tried this cable on a Raspberry Pi yet to see if it will work there.  I'll try that later tonight.

I don't want to give up on this SD Card Boot Hub design.  I'm not a quitter, so I'll be looking for alternative solutions.    But it's a bit of a disappointment that this didn't just work right off the shelf.   That would have been nice.  Now I have  yet another engineering problem to solve,....

Where's Bill?  @dronebot-workshop

I need engineering help with my SD Card Boot Hub. ? 

I should probably start a thread just dedicated to the SD Card Boot Hub project.  I'm really determined to build one and will only give up on it if it truly proves to be impossible.  Surely there must be a way to beef up the SD card signals?   There's got to be a way to make this work. 

Bill, if you need more information about the SD Card Boot Hub project I could start a new thread  that describes the overall design, what I've done so far, and how I'm hoping it could work.

SD Extender Cable Update:

Just in case anyone is curious,...

I tried the SD extender cable on a Raspberry Pi.  It worked just fine.   The rpi boot up normally and I was able to access files on the SD card and launch programs.   Apparently the rpi doesn't mind the SD card extension cable at all.   So at least I can go ahead and continue to design my SD Card Boot Hub and see if I can get it to work on the Raspberry Pies.   Of course I really don't need it for the Raspberry Pies because I don't swap out the SD cards as often on them.  None the less they can serve for prototyping the SD Card Boot Hub.  So I'm kind of back in business as far as design potential goes.

On the Jetson Nano

I have two identical Jetson Nanos so I tried the extender card on the second nano to see if it might work there.  But unfortunately it doesn't work on that Nano either.  So apparently the SD Card Signals  on the Jetson Nano are much weaker or inferior and not capable of reading from an SD card over  the cable. 

Just for the record the cables I bought are about 20" long or about a half a meter.  They do sell shorter cables that I could try.  The problem is that if the signals are that weak they probably aren't going to work well at all when I  try to put them through 74HC4066 electronic switching IC's on my SD Card Boot Hub.

So I'm  probably going to need to add signal boosters.   That's going to make the project far more complex than I had originally hoped for.   But then again, in the spirit of Hobby Electronics, it might be worth seeing if I can design a workable unit, just for the sake of doing it.    Like JFK once said, "We aren't going to the moon and do these other things because they are easy, we do them because they are hard." ? 

That's the spirit!   Let's get this thing built! 

Anyone have Signal Boosting Ideas?

How am I going to make this blasted thing work?

For right now it's "All Systems Go"  for the SD Card Boot Hub on the Raspberry Pi.  I'll continue to work on that and see if I can get an SD card to work  with the signals doing through a 74HC4066 chip.  If that can work without any signal conditioning that would certainly be encouraging. 

 I'll need to look at the schematic for the Jetson Nano.  Maybe there's something I can do on the Jetson Nano board to beef up it's SD card signals?

"Where there's a will there's a way" <------ that's what my mother always taught me.

I certainly have the will to make this work.  It would be so nice to have a four station SD Card Boot Hub on my Jetson Nanos.  I would really like that. ? 

@robo-pi

No signal boosting ideas... yet. Rather an idea for an experiment

Since you've loaded sd cards from a computer, you must have a usb sd card device. Why don't you try plugging the cable into the usb sd card device, and plug that into the nano's usb port, and see if it reads it

I'm not sure what this could prove, but, it might shed some light on what might be happening

OR... I just had an idea. Try a different speed sd card. Maybe it's a timing thing brought on by the length of the cable. Not saying the cable is too long, just the wrong mathematical length

Just thinking out loud here

Posted by: @spyder

Since you've loaded sd cards from a computer, you must have a usb sd card device. Why don't you try plugging the cable into the usb sd card device, and plug that into the nano's usb port, and see if it reads it

That's a good idea for something to try.  Not that it would help for the boot SD problem, but  it will be interesting to know if the SD cards will work via the extension cable that way on the Nano.  I already tried them for the boot SD on a rpi 3 and the pi booted up and run ok. 

Posted by: @spyder

OR... I just had an idea.

ought oh, we're in trouble now!

Posted by: @spyder

Try a different speed sd card.

Actually that is a great idea!  It could have something to do with the SD cards I'm using.  I would have never thought of that.  Unfortunately I only have one type of card.  I bought a bunch of the same cards to insure cloning consistency. 

I bought  Samsung EVO Select 64GB from Amazon

Here's the specs:

Up to 100MB/s & 60MB/s read & write speeds respectively; Class 10 UHS 3High-performance for 4K UHD video recording.

Those are the only SD cards I currently have for the Jetson Nano.   I do have other brands of SD cards but they are all only 16GB.   In fact, that was on the Raspberry Pi.   So it could have been the different SD card that made the Pi work with the cable?

 Maybe these EVO Select cards are the culprit?      That would  be great, sort of.   The only problem is that I have 8 of these cards @ $10 a piece.  It would be a real bummer if they turn out to be junk and I need to replace them with better cards.

Any  suggestions for a potentially better SD card?  I could buy one, clone a system onto it, and see what  happens.   If there are better SD cards to be had I'd want to go that route anyone probably.    I could use these EVO Selects for the Raspberry Pies. 

In fact, that's an idea right there.  I could clone a rpi  system onto one of these   EVO cards  and see if the  EVO card will boot up on the pi using  the extender cable.  If it doesn't  that would  at  least reveal that the problem  resides in the cards.   I'll see if I can find time to give that  experiment a shot.

Thanks for thinking out loud Spyder!  That's what the forums are for.  Thinking out loud and amateur poetry. ?

UPDATE:

First Spyder Labs Inc. test completed. ? 

I plugged an EVO Select 64GB Jetson Nano boot disk into the SD card extender cable, plugged the cable into as USB SD card reader.   And finally plugged the USB card reader into the Jetson nano.

Test results:  PASSED.

The Jetson Nano has no problem reading/writing to the EVO  Select SD card over the SD extension cable in this configuration.

So this suggests that the SD cards are not the problem.  Also the SD card extension cable appears to be working as well.  The original problem must have to do with really weak signals on the Jetson Nano SD card Boot slot.

Where are the NVIDIA engineers!  Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! ? 

Posted by: @robo-pi

It would be a real bummer if they turn out to be junk and I need to replace them with better cards.

I wasn't suggesting that the cards might be bad, only that speed might be an issue, that's why I suggested a slower card, not a different card

The USB bus isn't going to try to r/w at the same speed that the sd card slot will, so again, a slower card, not a different card is what I'm thinking. If the slower card words, it's likely a speed issue, if not, then it's still an "I don't know" problem

I wonder if the r/w speeds for the pi and nano are listed somewhere...

Ok, I found this

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2019/raspberry-pi-microsd-card-performance-comparison-2019

And this

https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2019/04/benchmarking-nvidia-jetson-nano.html

So the nano is clearly faster than the pi on the sd card r/w, which is AN answer, but, still not THE answer

Here's another option

https://www.jetsonhacks.com/2019/09/17/jetson-nano-run-from-usb-drive/

SSD with multiple OS's. It's not completely insanely complicated, merely overly complicated. According to this article, you would still basically be booting from SD, but, only initially, after the nano gets the data it needs from the SD, it would then switch to the USB drive (which would be an SSD connected to USB) and Grub could be configured to choose an OS on the same drive (which the article doesn't cover, but seems a logical extension)

I've done multi-boots before, but that was between various windows and linux, not various linux releases. I can't imagine the setup would be too much different tho. This would remove the need for any type of physical switching

Posted by: @spyder

I wasn't suggesting that the cards might be bad, only that speed might be an issue, that's why I suggested a slower card, not a different card

I see.  I could try that.  I'll need to buy a slower SD card and give that a shot.  But even that is a bit of a bummer, but perhaps if the speed is the issue I might be able to work on dealing with that problem directly.  At least I would know the root cause.

I could potentially still make it work for me by just using slower SD cards if that's the case.  I was hoping to potentially sell these after I make them.  But people aren't going to be interested if it means they could only use slower SD cards.  Everyone's addicted to speed. ? 

Posted by: @spyder

Here's another option

I did look into the USB boot option on the nano.  You can actually reconfigure the Nano to boot directly from the USB port.   It's a quite complicated process, but it can be done.   The only problem there is that potential consumers aren't going to want to do that either.  So while that could be a potential fix for me, it would kill the project in terms of anything beyond that.

I guess I'll need to look into signal  conditioning.  But even that would add quite a bit of complexity to the project.  I've already ordered all the parts to build a few of these, and I've already drawn up the schematic and PCB, so I'll probably keep on trucking  with it anyway just to see where it goes.    It should work with the Raspberry Pies.  So at least it has that much going for it.  But I really wanted it for the Jetson Nano.  That was the incentive to design it in the first place.   Even the SD card extender cable would have been better than having to dig the SD card out of the back of the Nano every time.  But I can't even use that.

I might just use this as an excuse to buy more Nanos! ? 

If I can't change the SD cards easily, then I'll just swap out the whole blasted Nano. ? 

Posted by: @robo-pi

Maybe these EVO Select cards are the culprit? 

While it seems that these  cards are not the the problem over here, I have also had problems with these cards. I had cloned the rpi boot system onto a 32 gig EVO card using piclone, and then ended up not needing it. I wanted to use the card as a plain storage device,but the rpi does not allow you to delete any filesystem, even one that is not on the boot card. Because I didn't want the hassle of using sudo to delete the filesystem through the command line, I formatted it using a regular window's formatter. When I inserted the card reader into the rpi though, it wouldn't register that there was a card there. I then formatted it again using the overwrite option on the formatter, but it still wouldn't register on the rpi. After a bit of a hassle,I realized that piclone registered the card. So I copied the contents of a thumb drive onto the card, and after that the rpi registered the card.

I've just been going on for a while ? but the point is that that there is problems with the EVO cards            

Posted by: @egers

I've just been going on for a while ? but the point is that that there is problems with the EVO cards    

Ironically I bought those EVO Select cards for the Jetson Nano because they looked like good cards.   They do work under normal circumstances.  They were only about $11 each.

I think I will give another brand name card a try just to see if it works.   I can pick up a 64GB card over at Walmart tomorrow.  I have no clue what to try?  Here's what they appear to have in stock at my Walmart.

I typically go for the cheapest I can find.  I buy a lot of Onn stuff. ? 

For a buck more I can get an ImageMate.

Or the ImageMate Plus for about $14

or should I splurge and get the ImageMate Pro for 16 bucks?

Are they really worth more money?  What's the big deal?

I typically buy stuff like this in lots of ten.  That's why I go for the cheapest one.  Ten Onn Cards would be about $100.   Ten of the Pro cards would be about $160.    So I typically think in terms of saving 60 bucks, rather than saving 6 bucks. ? 

 But tomorrow I'll just be picking up one card.

Which one should I buy?  Let's  have some VOTING here. ? 

I'm going to bed, I'll look to see if there were any votes by tomorrow.

No one voted
I feel so blue
I'm off to Walmart
and have no clue

Should I buy an ImageMate?
or settle for an Onn?
I guess I need to cut some straws
and see which one is drawn

Do I need a better card
or just a different brand?
Maybe I should buy them both
so I can understand.

Twenty-six of hard-earned bucks
will purchase one of each
I'll bring them home and see which one
the Jetson's signals reach

Will it be the lowly Onn?
Or will it take a Pro?
Only if I try them
can I ever truly know.

And if they both are failures
and nothing seems to work
I'll be very disappointed
as well as being broke

I just saw this, but it's probably too late and you've already been to Wally World and picked up a card.

I've been using the "Kingston Canvas Select 128 GB" microSD cards with my Jetson Nanos and so far I have not had any issues. 

I always have had good results on the Raspberry Pi (if that means anything) using either Kingston or Samsung cards. Thye both seem to go on sale a lot, at least around here.

But I once picked up a big pile of 16GB cards at Staples, their own brand, when they were on sale as they were a great price. Unfortunately, they were garbage, useable on the Arduino but not on the Pi. Unfortunately, I had removed all of them from their packages as I have a storage unit for microSD cards and a filing system to tell them apart, and I filed them before I tested them.  My error.

Posted by: @dronebot-workshop

I just saw this, but it's probably too late and you've already been to Wally World and picked up a card.

Yep, you're too late.  I just got back.   I bought an Onn 64GB 100MB speed card.  And an ImageMate Plus 64GB 130MB speed card.   I haven't tried them yet.  I need to clone the system over to them first.

They were out of stock on the ImageMate Pro which is 170 MB speed.   I would have tried that one but I had to settle for the Plus.

Posted by: @dronebot-workshop

I've been using the "Kingston Canvas Select 128 GB" microSD cards with my Jetson Nanos and so far I have not had any issues. 

I haven't had any issues with the Samsung EVO Select cards either when plugged directly into the  Jetson Nano.  They work just fine.  They are 100 MB read speed.  It's only when I try to boot up using an SD extension cable that they won't boot. 

The Onn card I bought is also a 100 MB speed.  So if speed is the issue the Onn card may be no different.  Maybe the ImageMate Plus card rated at 170 MB speed might make a difference?  I just don't know.

 I'll get the card cloning and see if it works  with the extension cable.   I'm guessing that both of these cards should work just fine when plugged directly into the Jetson Nano directrly.   So they will be usable in the normal way.

I'm just trying to get one to work at the end of a 20" or 1/2 meter SD card extension cable.

Do you have an SD card extension cable?   If you do, try plugging that into  your Jetson Nano and see if it still boots up  with the system card plugged into the end of the extension cable.   If it works let me know. ?

@robo-pi

Oh man, I missed the vote!  Not sure I should vote on what you should use, but I've had good luck using Samsung SD EVO and EVO+ cards as well as the SanDisk Ultra, but then I have not been doing the kind of experimenting that you have been involved in.

Whooooop!  Whoooop!  Whoooop!

DIVE!                 DIVE!                 DIVE!

Nightmares sighted off the starboard bow!

They won't clone!!!

I was afraid of this.  I've heard that different manufacturer's cards have different capacities even when they are all marked the same such as 64GB.

I put them in the cloning machine and the error light began flashing and refused to start the cloning process.

This occurs when the destination disk is smaller than the source disk.  You can clone from a smaller  disk to a larger disk, but not the other way around.  So no cloning today.

Here's the scoop looking at them in Windows

EVO Select                63,988,301,824 bytes     59.5 GB
ImageMate Plus      63.831,015,424 bytes      59.4 GB
The Onn Card.         62,081,990,656 bytes     57.8 GB

So the EVO Select cards are the largest.   The ImageMate Plus cards are next and the Onn card is the smallest.

Since the EVO Select cards currently hold my system image I can't clone them onto either of the new cards because both new cards are actually smaller in size.  A few bytes matter to a cloning machine.

It's not the end of the world. I can still copy a system image using Win32Diskimager and burn it back onto  one of these cards that way.  At least I think so?   But that's going to be a lot more work.

Why can't these manufactures get there act together and all get on the same page?  Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

This is exactly why I was sticking with the EVO Select cards.  As long as you have the exact same cards cloning is not a problem.

I can clone "backwards".   In other words, I can clone from the Onn Card onto the ImageMate Plus Card.  And I can clone from the ImageMate Plus card onto an EVO  Select.   Because on those  cases I'm always going to a larger card.

So what I'll probably do is burn a system image onto the Onn Card using Win32Diskimager, and then I can clone that system image onto the ImageMate Plus card.  

So anyway, this is  going to be more work than I had hoped.  And I don't even know if it's going to work!

I have a sledge hammer out in the shed.  I could just grab it and smash all my computers and retire from robotics entirely.  Then I can return to just planting flower gardens around my cottage. ? 

That would probably be a healthier life in my final days anyway. ?